Lost

[Tommygurl]

[quote=bizzokiki;1079924]

Originally Posted by Tommygurl

So we have:
Sun
Kate
Hurley
Jack
Sayid
?-We all thought it was Jin but maybe not now...maybe he dies or stays on the island. So who was in the coffin? Because if that person was one of the survivors they would have lived to get off the island...Unless it was one of the others.

quote]
I think Aaron is the other of the 6.

Could be...hmmmm I am not sure if the media would label him as part of the "Oceanic 6". If they thought he was Kates Baby? Tooo many questions.....

[LiveTo Travel]

I *think* the Oceanic 6 might be:
•Jack
•Hurley
•Sayid
•Kate
•Aaron?
•Sun

I throw Aaron in there as a toss up... is he considered a "survivor" or not? Either way, I believe that Jin "has to be" dead, the same way that the rest of the Survivors are. In Kate's trial, Jack said that Kate saved 8 people. Is it safe to assume that one of those would be Jin, which is how Sun became pregnant? Either way, I think that someone must be keeping a close eye on the 6, because of the way Hurley acted when he asked if anyone else was coming to Korea...

[TEX]

For anyone who can't get enough.....


Key Points from "Ji Yeon"
Season 4, Episode 7
Episode Air Date: 03/13/08

Point 1

So here I was thinking this would be a nice, tidy Sun-Jin episode ...
How stupid of me. I forgot that in the new end-date-determined "Lost" universe every episode matters. I gotta hand it to the "Lost" producers. I didn't see this coming at all.

So, let's dive right in to this surprisingly surprising episode.

We encounter a number of important developments on the Sun-Jin front:

Juliet tells Sun that her continued presence on the island will end badly ... both for Sun and her baby. According to Juliet's calculations, Sun needs to depart within three weeks if she wants to save the baby and herself.
Under normal circumstances Sun would undoubtedly heed the advice of her OB/GYN, but seeing as how Jules has a bad track record in the trust department (and seeing as stupid stupid stupid Kate is planting seeds of doubt in Sun's mind), Sun decides that Juliet is full of crap.

Actually, Sun's BS detector is running at full capacity for most of this episode. She makes it very clear she doesn't trust Juliet and, in another scene, she asks Daniel Faraday if he and the freighter folk are going to rescue the castaways or not (the answer: uhh, probably not ... but maybe!). Sun is now the antithesis of a every other "Lost" character. Has anyone on this show ever been this direct? Next week she'll confront Ben about his bug eyes.

Anyway ... the Beach Crap Index is way too high for Sun, so she tells Jin they're packing up and moving to the barracks with Locke. Or so she thinks.

See, Sun underestimated Juliet. She didn't realize that Juliet will do anything to protect a patient ... including going so far as to reveal a horrible, treacherous secret.

Juliet, in a desperation move, tells Jin about Sun's affair.

Because I'm an unabashed Juliet apologist, I feel the need to justify her actions. Sun left Jules no other option. A trip to the barracks would seal the fates of Sun and the baby, and dammit, Juliet just can't go through that again. So if a marriage-shattering revelation is the only way to save lives, then so be it. God bless you, Dr. Burke.


Jin reacts as you'd expect: he storms off and goes fishing with Bernard. The two row out to Jin's favorite fishing spot (using the stolen Other boat that carried Kate, Sawyer and Karl back to the main island in season three), and Bernard uses this opportunity to wax poetic about marriage and karma and ... oh hell, I don't know what he's talking about. Basically, Bernard says that doing the right thing inevitably pays dividends.
Apparently, Bernard hasn't watched this show.

Bernard's words are Neosporin for Jin's broken heart. When Jin returns to the beach camp later that night, he cooks up a delicious "I forgive you" seafood dinner for Sun. The pairs reconciles and all seems well ...
But then we come to the flash forward.

Usually, I can watch an episode of "Lost" and get a decent handle on the major plot developments. But this episode's flash-forward threw me into a tailspin. If I miss something -- or if the flash-forward is clearer to everyone else -- please, please share your thoughts in the comments area. I can use the help.

So here's what I think happens:

Sun makes it off the island.

Sun is pregnant and living in South Korea (I think). She experiences complications early in the episode and is rushed to the hospital. At roughly the same time, Jin receives a call on his cellphone and he darts into a nearby store to buy a baby gift.
Upon arriving at the hospital, nurses recognize Sun as one of the Oceanic 6. Sun, doesn't have time for autographs because a 7-pound creature is jazzercizing her internal organs.

A doctor soon tells Sun a C-section is necessary, but Sun insists on waiting for Jin. Then, in one of those "only on TV" moments, the baby begins to emerge on its own and BLAM! out pops a little girl. Mother and daughter are healthy and happy.

Moments later, Jin rushes into a maternity ward clutching a giant stuffed panda (it's a gift).

And this is when things get screwy ...

Jin isn't there to see Sun. He's not even at the same hospital.
Jin is working for Paik Automotive. He bought the panda and rushed to the hospital so he could extend best wishes to an important ambassador. And, just to drive home the confusion, Jin later tells a nurse that he's in no rush to have kids because he's only been married for two months.

WHAT?!

In the final moments of the episode, the writers decide that one twist just isn't enough (thanks guys). Hurley travels to South Korea to visit Sun and her new baby (she named her Ji Yeon -- the name Jin wanted). Mother, daughter and Hurley visit a cemetery. They stop and look down at ...
wait for it ... waaaait for it ... this one is gonna hurt ...

JIN'S GRAVE!?!

Sun and Hurley are mourning dead Jin!

At first I thought this was an elaborate act orchestrated to protect the "live" Jin from media exposure. But that doesn't make sense because the only person Jin and Sun feared was Sun's daddy, not The Media or The World.

And then I got a good long look at the gravestone. The text is in Korean (translations welcome), but three dates are visible:

3/20/1980
11/27/1974
9/22/2004

I assume 11/27/1974 is the date of Jin's birth, and we know 9/22/2004 is the day Oceanic 815 went down. But what's the significance of 3/20/1980?

And, more importantly, how/when did Jin die?

Sidenote 1: (Update 3/14/08): As many have noted, it appears we witnessed our first combined flash-forward (Sun) and flash-back (Jin). The "Year of the Dragon" comment from the shopkeeper and Jin's Mulder-esque cellphone are good clues (until the producers later reveal it was actually a flash-forward with a mistaken shopkeeper and a really old phone ...).

Sidenote 2 (Update 3/14/08): The initial version of this review contained incorrect information. If you're super interested, you can check out the Editor's Note at the end of this review to see what I screwed up and what was deleted.

One nitpick: This is the second time the writers have employed the "drug-addled flash-forward character" device. In "Through the Looking Glass" an intoxicated Jack talks about his Dead Daddy as though he's alive, and in this episode a medicated Sun calls out for Jin during delivery. I hope they don't employ this trick in the future because: 1. it's kinda lame and 2. it gets me every time!

Point 2

The "Man on the Boat" mystery appears to be solved in the final moments of this episode. In case you hadn't guessed, it's Michael.
Michael is posing as a guy named Kevin Johnson. The how and why surrounding Michael's return will presumably be revealed in next week's Michael-centric episode, but for now we can put to rest the man on the boat theorizing and instead turn our attention to more pressing matters. Like Cindy's scarf.

(Couldn't resist.)

The real revelation in this episode comes from a new character: Captain Gault, supreme commander of the Freighter Folk and Vinnie Jones doppleganger.

Capt. Gault would get along well with Sun because both have a strong command of blunt communication (and both think the name Ji Yeon is really quite pretty).

Mere seconds after Desmond and Sayid meet the captain, Gault tells them Charles Widmore is financing the freighter operation and -- more importantly -- the Oceanic 815 wreckage "discovered" earlier this season was faked.

And here's the kicker: Gault suggests that Ben is behind the fake.

Now, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt because we really have no reason to believe anything Gault or Widmore says. And we know we can't believe anything Ben says, either. Nonetheless, the plot is thickening real good right now.

Beyond Michael and Capt. Gault, there were a few additional freighter moments in this episode:

Operating the satellite phone is hazardous to your health. The first operator -- Minkowski -- suffered a time-warp brain implosion and in the early moments of this episode we watch Regina (Operator No. 2) pull a Virginia Woolf (with chains instead of stones ... but same idea).

Lapidus takes the helicopter on an errand. Is there a Taco Bell inside the Hydra Station? Where'd he go?

Assuming Michael is truly the Man on the Boat, he deserves a gold star from his buggy employer. He ripped out the radio equipment, screwed up the ship's engines, and instigated some sort of "kitchen incident" -- all without getting caught or raising suspicion.

Point 3
Oceanic Six roll call time!
The 9/22/04 date on Jin's gravestone leads me to believe he is not among the Blessed Six. So, that means we only have five confirmed Sixers: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun.

So who's No. 6?

We've also seen five other islanders in off-island locales: Aaron, Ben, Jin, Michael and Charlie (I know ... Charlie's dead, but he was still "off island"). Walt probably belongs on this list as well, but let's not make assumptions just yet.

The list of characters who haven't appeared in flash forwards is notable, especially since the Oceanic 6 tag doesn't necessarily mean a character doesn't leave the island. The following list is off the top of my head, so let me know if I missed anyone.

Characters we haven't seen off the island:

Sawyer
Locke
Juliet
Desmond (the freighter doesn't count)
Claire
Rose
Bernard
Vincent
Rousseau
Alex
Karl
Cindy

Point 4
A few closing questions and observations:
Best Line: "I need the panda." -- Action Jin to a shopkeeper.

Second Best Line: "Where exactly does one come across 324 dead bodies?" --Capt. Gault, stating his case against Ben.

The castaways are getting pretty good with island directions. Kate tells Sun and Jin: "Once you get to the stream, head northwest ... it's pretty much a straight line for a day and a half."
That's all I've got!

Be sure to drop by the "Lost" Forum for stimulating conversation and conjecture.

Editor's Note (3/14/08): This review has been updated to include new information. I removed references to Jin making it off the island because, well, that's probably incorrect. I also deleted a long and useless paragraph that talked about the chronology of flashforwards. Unfortunately, these edits don't mask the fact that I screwed up the backstory/future-flash hook. To that end I offer a hearty "my bad, yo."

Next Episode:
"Meet Kevin Johnson" -- Sayid meets/finds Ben's man on the boat. Airs Thursday, March 20, 2008 at 9 p.m. on ABC.

[LiveTo Travel]

Originally Posted by TEX

And then I got a good long look at the gravestone. The text is in Korean (translations welcome), but three dates are visible:

3/20/1980
11/27/1974
9/22/2004

I assume 11/27/1974 is the date of Jin's birth, and we know 9/22/2004 is the day Oceanic 815 went down. But what's the significance of 3/20/1980?

I believe that is Sun's birthday. There was space on the left for another date.

[Tommygurl]

Originally Posted by LiveTo Travel

I believe that is Sun's birthday. There was space on the left for another date.

Which would mean it would not have been a headstone the family had erected after the crash as they would have had Sun as deceased.
Hmmmm I wonder.... the Oceanic 6 are participating in a cover up after they leave? Why?

[LiveTo Travel]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. I guess if the family had put up the monument when the "fuselage" was found Sun's side would gave a 'deceased' date too. Every answer brings more questions!

[TEX]

Originally Posted by Tommygurl

Which would mean it would not have been a headstone the family had erected after the crash as they would have had Sun as deceased.
Hmmmm I wonder.... the Oceanic 6 are participating in a cover up after they leave? Why?

Good point. Unless they changed the headstone after Sun returned.

[ryberg]

I'm sure Aaron is not one of the Oceanic 6, and the reason is simple: they want us to think at some point that we've finally finished identifying the Oceanic 6 and settle into that and forget about it so that they can pull out a surprise for us: another member of the Oceanic 6.

Mark my words!

Steve

[Flash]

Tex,

I've been thinking about the debate on whether or not the plane at the bottom of the ocean is staged or not. I know what Frank said about it NOT being Flight 815.

We all know from watching the show that things have a way of course correcting itself. Like Charlie for example. He was SUPPOSED to have died a few episodes before, but Desmond kept saving his butt. If you are supposed to die and don't, it will find a way to get ya.

Back to Flight 815. For whatever reason (reasons that I hope will eventually come to light) there was a brief moment that the plane existed in two places at once. Well, with the survivors stuck on the island, the univerise can't course correct because they can not be found.

There are a few things that lead me to this. One, the "staged" crash. When we see the wreckage on the video, the plane is broken up into 3 main sections, the tail, the middle, and the cockpit. JUST like how it crashed on the island.
Points 2 and 3 are similar. Back in Season 2, many people took note as to some of the items in the hatch being in different locations. The stereo that Des used would be in one place in one scene or episode, then it would be moved to the other side of the shelf in the next scene or episode. Most people chalked it up to prop error on the set. I'm not so sure anymore.

The most recent evidence of this would be this season. 2nd episode of the season, "Confirmed Dead". In Miles flashback, he visits the lady to help out with the spirit of her grandson. At the beginning of the scene, Miles glances over at the pictures on the wall. At the of the scene when he comes back downstairs, he glances back over at the pics.

The first glance, the pictures were in their frames. The second glance, the pictures are in DIFFERENT frames! Prop error. I submit that it is not.

What does this mean? Quite frankly, I'm not sure. But I believe that we are dealing with multiple strands or layers of very similar timelines. Why? Again I don't know.

And one more thing. Back to Frank. He calls Oceanic to tell them what he knows. My guess (hey, that's all I have) is that Frank is correct when he says that what he is seeing is not the pilot that flew Flight 815. I'm thinking that who Frank is looking at is himself!

I know, weird, unbelievable, bizzare. Don't know how, but I'm hoping some answers will be forthcoming.

Here's a screenshot of the Miles flashback:

[ryberg]

That's wild about those photos! And they did kind of focus on those...

Also a wild idea about Frank maybe looking at himself. That would match up well with the numbered rabbit thing (which Ben humorously referenced a couple of episodes ago when Locke brought him rabbit to eat!) that the creators have said is a key to understanding the show.

However it seems like a stretch to me. I'm tempted to fly in the face of Ben's advise through Michael and believe the captain on this point, myself: Ben and his considerable resources managed to stage this whole crash in order to deflect attention from rescue attempts and the island. Widmore has found this out through his considerable resources and is still looking for it. Call my crazy, but that's my guess...

Steve

[REDirish]

Originally Posted by LiveTo Travel

I believe that is Sun's birthday. There was space on the left for another date.

It is traditional in Asian countries to put the wife's dates and the husbands on both headstones, so the 1980 date might very well be Sun's. But that would not explain why her date of death would not be the crash date like Jin's. Unless part of the deal of the Oceanic 6 (assuming they are given a deal) is that since Jin stayed behind they use the date of the crash as his death. But I cannot imagine him not coming back with Sun.

[REDirish]

Originally Posted by Flash

We all know from watching the show that things have a way of course correcting itself. Like Charlie for example. He was SUPPOSED to have died a few episodes before, but Desmond kept saving his butt. If you are supposed to die and don't, it will find a way to get ya.

Flash -

Great catch on the photos!!!! And I am in agreement with you on the course correcting idea. Assuming that life has a way of balancing events, maybe this whole "layers" thing continues to happen because of the survivors on the island. Life will not be able to correct its course while they are alive.

Is it possible that Widmore knows this and sent those people back to kill all of the survivors? Thus setting the course in a forward motion again while being able to profit off of finding the island at the same time - this would explain the "staged" deaths of all of the Flight 815 passengers. No one would look for "murdered" people if they were assumed dead to begin with, right? It would also explain why he wants the "black box". Maybe he isn't planning on profitting at all, but has other ideas in mind?

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by REDirish

It is traditional in Asian countries to put the wife's dates and the husbands on both headstones, so the 1980 date might very well be Sun's. But that would not explain why her date of death would not be the crash date like Jin's. Unless part of the deal of the Oceanic 6 (assuming they are given a deal) is that since Jin stayed behind they use the date of the crash as his death. But I cannot imagine him not coming back with Sun.

You lost me on that. (Get it? Heh, heh.)

I think the most obvious assumption is that nobody put anything up before the crash or before they found out there were actually any survivors, that Sun was then discovered to have been one of those survivors (the Oceanic Six) and Jin wasn't, and that correspondingly they put up a headstone with her birth date but not death date and with his birth date and the date of the crash as his death date. (Indeed, the most probable thing, given Jin's poor and broken family background, is that Sun herself put up that headstone.)

I mean, I don't want to be too direct or logical where this show is concerned, but doesn't that make sense?

Of course there would remain the question of how and why the Oceanic Six decided on the particular version they give out for public consumption, but then we already know they evidently agreed on something made up that included almost no initial survivors (only 8, I think Jack said), so the fact that the date of the crash would be showing as Jin's death date would not then be surprising.

Originally Posted by REDirish

Maybe he isn't planning on profitting at all, but has other ideas in mind?

Yes, this is what I was theorizing a page or two ago: if Widmore wanted to expose Ben to the world as a liar and murderer and wanted to expose the island to the public for profit, obviously the best thing he could have his people do would be to rescue at least some of the survivors and parade them around in public. Thus the fact that he is uninterested in doing that suggests that he is uninterested in that goal and has other ideas in mind.

Steve

[Flash]

One more little tidbit about the Miles scene and I'll let it go.

I'm sure some of you happened to notice the boy in the pic looks alot like Ecko when he was growing up. You can go check out a pic of them here. The other thing about it is that when Miles finds the cash in his room, he also finds heroin. What did Ecko have dealings with in Africa? Heroin.

There is so much stuff that they are able to slide in under our noses. Maybe in this case it's a red herring. Just thought I'd point out a couple of other connections.

[bizzokiki]

My brain is starting to hurt trying to figure this all out...