Tookie..

Joana · 12-12-2005

Just a note as this was a subject recently in the now closed death penalty- poll: Gov. Schwarzenegger has refused to pardon Tookie as I've just read.

So he will be executed shortly after midnight Californian time tonight.

Babaloo · 12-12-2005

yep....interested to hear the comments.
No DNA evidence.
Turned his life around?
Repented?
Gave back to society?

I just don't like it.

BonnyW · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaloo

yep....interested to hear the comments.
No DNA evidence.
Turned his life around?
Repented?
Gave back to society?
I just don't like it.

Here is what the California D.A. brought to Arnold:
http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

MikeW · 12-12-2005

His final lesson.

**TeeZet** · 12-12-2005

Rev. Jackson stated (on CNN) that "he felt pain for Schwarzenegger's decision to choose revenge over redemption and to use Tookie Williams as a trophy in this flawed system".

Joana · 12-12-2005

Since the subject came up I read various things about Tookie.

One thing that worries me in this case when it comes to the death penalty is that there still seem to be incoherent moments in the trial. He has claimed he was not guilty of these murders on various occasions.
Okay- even if he was not guilty of these he surely indirectly was of others due to being a founder of a gang.

But still- a long time has passed and for a long time he has repented and tried everything to make the world a bit of a better place by trying to keep kids from entering gangs and so many other things.

So at this point I personally feel that he has shown he has changed, that he has done good.

I feel it would be better if he wouldn't be executed. So his example can show others that if you change you can get another chance- that if you work, educate yourself and do good you might be allowed to live.

I think the call for clemency sent to Gov. Schwarzenegger says it all:
http://www.cm-p.com/pdf/executiveclemency.pdf

ThrushJockey · 12-12-2005

FYI -

Here's some light reading about this model citizen's behavior.

Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' Prison Record

<TABLE id=gh cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

</TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Nov 29 2005

Williams' Violent Acts on Death Row

In response to Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' petition for clemency, the Los Angeles District Attorney's office outlined in its response the following prison discipline record of the notorious founder of the Crips gang.

After being convicted of the four murders and sentenced to death in 1981, Stanley Williams was sent to San Quentin State Prison. Upon arriving at San Quentin, Williams quickly demonstrated violent behavior consistent with a hardened murderer. Although this is not an exhaustive list of Williams' violent acts while in prison, it is illustrative of his behavior at San Quentin:

On June 30, 1981, just two months after being sentenced, Williams was involved in a violent fight with another inmate. Williams was observed kneeling over the other inmate and striking him in the head with his closed fists. When Williams was ordered to cease fighting, he ignored the order. Only after repeated orders to stop, did Williams stop his violence. (P. Exh. 6).
On January 26, 1982, Williams was ordered to lineup for his return to his cell. Williams refused the order and became hostile. The guard then explained the line-up procedure to Williams. Williams responded by saying "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do…one of these days I'll trick you boy." (P. Exh. 7).
On January 28, 1982, Williams had two separate instances where he threw chemical substances at guards. In one of these instances, Williams threw a chemical substance in the eyes and on the face of a guard. As a result of that assault, the guard suffered from chemical burns to these areas and had to be taken to the hospital where he received emergency care. (P. Exh. 8).
On January 29, 1982, Williams again attacked a guard by throwing a chemical substance on him. (P. Exh. 9).
On February 16, 1984, a guard saw Williams bending over another inmate and striking him with his closed fists. In an effort to stop the attack, the guard blew his whistle and drew his weapon. Williams, however, continued to fight. Only after a guard fired a warning shot, did Williams stop fighting. (P. Exh. 10).
On June 8, 1984, Williams was observed participating in inappropriate behavior with a female visitor. When the guard advised the female of the prison policies, Williams became verbally hostile and stated, "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." (P. Exh. 11).
On July 4, 1986, Williams stepped between a guard and another inmate and began to beat up the inmate. The guard ordered Williams to stop but Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, after gun officers responded, Williams stopped the attack. (P. Exh. 12).
On October 10, 1988, Williams was involved in a fight that led to him being stabbed. Prison officials subsequently learned that this stabbing was done in retaliation for a September 22, 1988, stabbing of another inmate ordered by Crips leader Stanley Williams. (P. Exh. 13).
On October 19, 1988, Williams was placed in Administrative Segregation based on his association with the Crips street gang. (P. Exh. 13).
On December 24, 1991, Williams was involved in another fight with an inmate. Once again, despite being ordered to stop, Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, gun officers responded by firing a round near Williams. After the shot was fired, guards gained control over Williams. (P. Exh. 14).
On July 6, 1993, a large fight broke out in the shower area. Williams was one of the combatants. A guard ordered the inmates to stop, but the fight continued. After a warning shot was fired, the fighting stopped. Subsequently, a stabbing instrument ("shank") made of sharpened plastic was recovered from where the fight had occurred. (P. Exh. 15).

MikeW · 12-12-2005

I just read most of the DA's report to the Governor.

My conclusion: He's still a CRIP.

Joana · 12-12-2005

There is one thing I don't understand.
In his appeal for clemency it is mentioned that he was in isolation in prison for six years- to me it sounded like those were the years '88 until '94.
I don't get how he could get into fights in that period??
Hm. Weird.

Anyhow- it is also mentioned in the petition for clemency that for over ten years in prison he did not repent- that he changed during the isolation phase and after that started his good work if you want to call it that.
Fact is that he hasn't gotten into trouble any more for 12 years- and that he has done some good things in the meantime.

I am NOT saying he is not guilty.
I am also not saying this man was never violent or hasn't done bad things and or that he has harmed noone.

All I feel is that how he seems to be now and after the work he has done it just somehow doesn't feel right what is supposed to happen.......

You know- I suppose in this case we see exactly what some pointed out: how problematic it is that the executions take place after such a long time.

Imagine the execution would have happened like- five years after he was sentenced.
Apart from not liking the death penalty I would have understood better where all this comes from then- as he hadn't repented and hadn't changed.
Of course time doesn't make the murders "better"- but now he has changed......and is doing good. I think that's why it seems so......weird.
Or: even weirder than death penalty is for me anyhow.

Joana · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

I just read most of the DA's report to the Governor.

My conclusion: He's still a CRIP.

Did you also read the clemency- petition?

I read both in the meantime.....and I suppose the truth is somewhere in the middle........
But fact are the books he wrote, the work he has done- and I personally feel if he gets executed many kids out there will be like "Well, even if I change I'll still get killed....so what the heck. I'll just carry on...".

**TeeZet** · 12-12-2005

Joana, although I totally agree with you I still see the execution as a part of a democratic system. A majority voted for those who made a law which includes a capital punishment. Thus that majority voted for the consequences.
Mind you: it's still something that goes beyond (though just a little) my comprehension...

Joana · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeeZet

Joana, although I totally agree with you I still see the execution as a part of a democratic system. A majority voted for those who made a law which includes a capital punishment. Thus that majority voted for the consequences.
Mind you: it's still something that goes beyond (though just a little) my comprehension...

I totally didn't mean to say the fact that he was sentenced to death was wrong within that juridistical system. I also don't mean to point out they don't have the right to execute him if that is what the system there points at.

I guess I was just somehow hoping he would get pardoned........

Fact is that it took Schwarzenegger several days to make his mind up.
Which is good- because it shows he has put a lot of thought behind this.
And it also shows all sides were pondered.

roni · 12-12-2005

No way Arnold was going to give him clemency - the Guvenator would not want to be called a girly man. I liked Jerry Brown better

.

**TeeZet** · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joana

...I guess I was just somehow hoping he would get pardoned........

Me too...

Joana · 12-12-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by roni

No way Arnold was going to give him clemency - the Guvenator would not want to be called a girly man. I liked Jerry Brown better

.

See- THAT is something I love about the US though....nothing is impossible!!
Aaahnold as governor...still brings a smile to my face somehow.

Don't even know...is he doing a good job?? Hardly any news about that after his election was over on this side of the pond.

12-12-2005	#1 (permalink)
Joana Niiiice!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: With Quincy....... Posts: 4,961	Tookie.. Just a note as this was a subject recently in the now closed death penalty- poll: Gov. Schwarzenegger has refused to pardon Tookie as I've just read. So he will be executed shortly after midnight Californian time tonight.

12-12-2005	#7 (permalink)
ThrushJockey añejo Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,778	FYI - Here's some light reading about this model citizen's behavior. Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' Prison Record <TABLE id=gh cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Nov 29 2005 Williams' Violent Acts on Death Row In response to Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' petition for clemency, the Los Angeles District Attorney's office outlined in its response the following prison discipline record of the notorious founder of the Crips gang. After being convicted of the four murders and sentenced to death in 1981, Stanley Williams was sent to San Quentin State Prison. Upon arriving at San Quentin, Williams quickly demonstrated violent behavior consistent with a hardened murderer. Although this is not an exhaustive list of Williams' violent acts while in prison, it is illustrative of his behavior at San Quentin: On June 30, 1981, just two months after being sentenced, Williams was involved in a violent fight with another inmate. Williams was observed kneeling over the other inmate and striking him in the head with his closed fists. When Williams was ordered to cease fighting, he ignored the order. Only after repeated orders to stop, did Williams stop his violence. (P. Exh. 6). On January 26, 1982, Williams was ordered to lineup for his return to his cell. Williams refused the order and became hostile. The guard then explained the line-up procedure to Williams. Williams responded by saying "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do…one of these days I'll trick you boy." (P. Exh. 7). On January 28, 1982, Williams had two separate instances where he threw chemical substances at guards. In one of these instances, Williams threw a chemical substance in the eyes and on the face of a guard. As a result of that assault, the guard suffered from chemical burns to these areas and had to be taken to the hospital where he received emergency care. (P. Exh. 8). On January 29, 1982, Williams again attacked a guard by throwing a chemical substance on him. (P. Exh. 9). On February 16, 1984, a guard saw Williams bending over another inmate and striking him with his closed fists. In an effort to stop the attack, the guard blew his whistle and drew his weapon. Williams, however, continued to fight. Only after a guard fired a warning shot, did Williams stop fighting. (P. Exh. 10). On June 8, 1984, Williams was observed participating in inappropriate behavior with a female visitor. When the guard advised the female of the prison policies, Williams became verbally hostile and stated, "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." (P. Exh. 11). On July 4, 1986, Williams stepped between a guard and another inmate and began to beat up the inmate. The guard ordered Williams to stop but Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, after gun officers responded, Williams stopped the attack. (P. Exh. 12). On October 10, 1988, Williams was involved in a fight that led to him being stabbed. Prison officials subsequently learned that this stabbing was done in retaliation for a September 22, 1988, stabbing of another inmate ordered by Crips leader Stanley Williams. (P. Exh. 13). On October 19, 1988, Williams was placed in Administrative Segregation based on his association with the Crips street gang. (P. Exh. 13). On December 24, 1991, Williams was involved in another fight with an inmate. Once again, despite being ordered to stop, Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, gun officers responded by firing a round near Williams. After the shot was fired, guards gained control over Williams. (P. Exh. 14). On July 6, 1993, a large fight broke out in the shower area. Williams was one of the combatants. A guard ordered the inmates to stop, but the fight continued. After a warning shot was fired, the fighting stopped. Subsequently, a stabbing instrument ("shank") made of sharpened plastic was recovered from where the fight had occurred. (P. Exh. 15). __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. (Frank Sinatra)

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12-12-2005	#2 (permalink)
Babaloo añejo Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Paamul, Q Roo Mexico Posts: 10,767	yep....interested to hear the comments. No DNA evidence. Turned his life around? Repented? Gave back to society? I just don't like it.

12-12-2005	#4 (permalink)
MikeW añejo Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 9,299	His final lesson.

12-12-2005	#5 (permalink)
TeeZet Non-aggressive Dutch dude Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Uithoorn, The Netherlands Posts: 7,703	Rev. Jackson stated (on CNN) that "he felt pain for Schwarzenegger's decision to choose revenge over redemption and to use Tookie Williams as a trophy in this flawed system".

12-12-2005	#6 (permalink)
Joana Niiiice!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: With Quincy....... Posts: 4,961	Since the subject came up I read various things about Tookie. One thing that worries me in this case when it comes to the death penalty is that there still seem to be incoherent moments in the trial. He has claimed he was not guilty of these murders on various occasions. Okay- even if he was not guilty of these he surely indirectly was of others due to being a founder of a gang. But still- a long time has passed and for a long time he has repented and tried everything to make the world a bit of a better place by trying to keep kids from entering gangs and so many other things. So at this point I personally feel that he has shown he has changed, that he has done good. I feel it would be better if he wouldn't be executed. So his example can show others that if you change you can get another chance- that if you work, educate yourself and do good you might be allowed to live. I think the call for clemency sent to Gov. Schwarzenegger says it all: http://www.cm-p.com/pdf/executiveclemency.pdf

12-12-2005	#8 (permalink)
MikeW añejo Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 9,299	I just read most of the DA's report to the Governor. My conclusion: He's still a CRIP.

12-12-2005	#9 (permalink)
Joana Niiiice!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: With Quincy....... Posts: 4,961	There is one thing I don't understand. In his appeal for clemency it is mentioned that he was in isolation in prison for six years- to me it sounded like those were the years '88 until '94. I don't get how he could get into fights in that period?? Hm. Weird. Anyhow- it is also mentioned in the petition for clemency that for over ten years in prison he did not repent- that he changed during the isolation phase and after that started his good work if you want to call it that. Fact is that he hasn't gotten into trouble any more for 12 years- and that he has done some good things in the meantime. I am NOT saying he is not guilty. I am also not saying this man was never violent or hasn't done bad things and or that he has harmed noone. All I feel is that how he seems to be now and after the work he has done it just somehow doesn't feel right what is supposed to happen....... You know- I suppose in this case we see exactly what some pointed out: how problematic it is that the executions take place after such a long time. Imagine the execution would have happened like- five years after he was sentenced. Apart from not liking the death penalty I would have understood better where all this comes from then- as he hadn't repented and hadn't changed. Of course time doesn't make the murders "better"- but now he has changed......and is doing good. I think that's why it seems so......weird. Or: even weirder than death penalty is for me anyhow.

12-12-2005	#11 (permalink)
TeeZet Non-aggressive Dutch dude Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Uithoorn, The Netherlands Posts: 7,703	Joana, although I totally agree with you I still see the execution as a part of a democratic system. A majority voted for those who made a law which includes a capital punishment. Thus that majority voted for the consequences. Mind you: it's still something that goes beyond (though just a little) my comprehension...

12-12-2005	#13 (permalink)
roni Happy Curmudgeon Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 26,582	No way Arnold was going to give him clemency - the Guvenator would not want to be called a girly man. I liked Jerry Brown better .

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