Your Civil Rights - 1, Bush Administration - 0

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by Banzoomba

What "I get" is......We are under attack by people who don't play by any rules.......and if listening to targeted phone calls is going to keep us from getting attacked again.....What I "don't get" is who besides the bad guys would be against it

People who wish to live in a semblance of a constitutional democracy should all oppose this if they are aware of the inherent dangers. If thet aren't aware of the dangers I believe they should educate themselves. There are special FISA courts that issue warrants for wiretaps like these which are almost automatically approved.

[Banzoomba]

Originally Posted by StewartG

Zoom, you didn't answer my question. Where are you willing to draw the line? Since you say that the bad guys don't play by any rules, are you implying that the U.S. Government should not play by any rules?

I mean, the Bush administration ordered and authorized the wiretaps, which everyone will freely admit (I hope!) were against the law. They did this even though they had a "quick action" court set up to help get the needed warrants to comply with the law.

I *REALLY* want to know from you and PDS - when is enough enough? WHERE WILL YOU DRAW THE LINE???

I believe.....(here we go ).....that the action my goverment has taken is to protect us so we can go to work with out getting blown up....the only difference between what the goverment is doing now and what has been done in the past ....is some paper with an agenda decide to make a big stink about it

[lulabell]

Originally Posted by StewartG

Well, first of all, no, it wasn't. That plot was broken up by the British. As far as I know, the illegal wiretapping on millions of U.S. citizens had nothing to do with it.

Second of all - I have another idea that will help keep us more safe. Lets have the U.S. government install cameras in our homes, cars, workplaces and all public spaces so they can watch what every individual in the country is doing at any given time. That would most CERTAINLY help cut down on terrorism. Are you up for this?

You know I was sincere asking my question and don't know why you had to be so mean. I am almost certain I heard that this was one of the tools the British used to foil this plot. By the way I will do anything and it's ok by me to use cameras anywhere we need if it will stop us from being killed. I'm quite certain that will not be the case in my own home.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Banzoomba

What "I get" is......We are under attack by people who don't play by any rules.......and if listening to targeted phone calls is going to keep us from getting attacked again.....What I "don't get" is who besides the bad guys would be against it

Amen, Amen, Amen.......

[lulabell]

Why do you think that we don't get it. We just get it in two different ways. I believe we live in a democracy. Why don't you want us to stop the possibility of terrorist attacks? The government does not have innocent people on their radar just waiting to jump on us for everyday talking, they want to stop death. Simple statement. Asking for simple response. Please don't be hateful or mean, I am really trying to understand your side.

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by mrsbosco

You know I was sincere asking my question and don't know why you had to be so mean. I am almost certain I heard that this was one of the tools the British used to foil this plot. By the way I will do anything and it's ok by me to use cameras anywhere we need if it will stop us from being killed. I'm quite certain that will not be the case in my own home.

Mrsbosco: I am VERY sorry if I came across as mean - I did not mean to! I am just all torqued up about this, and I meant to come across as vehement. Not particularly to you, but to the OTHERS who are reading this thread... (You guys know who you are!)

Seriously, I apologize... I get way too torqued up by this stuff sometimes. Please believe me, I wasn't trying to be mean, just trying to continue to strongly make my point. I could see that you were just asking the question because you didn't know and weren't necessarily trying to argue about anything. Bottom line though, even if you WERE trying to argue, I *STILL* don't want to be mean!!! (I argue with friends sometimes, and we always remain friends.)

I am very, very sorry if I offended you or came across as mean. I "mean" it.

We cool...?

[james]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

It seems that many of you just don't "get it". I like living under a system of checks and balances. I love the Constitution. I even like it when we feign living in a democracy.

for real.

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by Banzoomba

I believe.....(here we go ).....that the action my goverment has taken is to protect us so we can go to work with out getting blown up....the only difference between what the goverment is doing now and what has been done in the past ....is some paper with an agenda decide to make a big stink about it

So if some smiling government worker in a white jumpsuit got out of a black van, knocked on your door and announced that he was installing government issued cameras in EVERY room of your house for 24 hour surveillance of you and your family. Would you be okay with it? I mean, after all, if you've not doing anything wrong...

So, I'll ask again - would this be okay? Yes or no?

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Amen, Amen, Amen.......

What about you, Mikey? Okay with the govt issued cameras in your house? You're not a "bad guy" are you?

So would you let the guy install the cameras? Yes or no?

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by mrsbosco

Why do you think that we don't get it. We just get it in two different ways. I believe we live in a democracy. Why don't you want us to stop the possibility of terrorist attacks? The government does not have innocent people on their radar just waiting to jump on us for everyday talking, they want to stop death. Simple statement. Asking for simple response. Please don't be hateful or mean, I am really trying to understand your side.

Illegal wiretapping has nothing to do with fending of terrorist attacks. I am curious as to what you might base the assumption that the government doesn't have innocent people on their radar? It seems to me if this were true that they would simply get the FISA warrants.

[Banzoomba]

Originally Posted by StewartG

So if some smiling government worker in a white jumpsuit got out of a black van, knocked on your door and announced that he was installing government issued cameras in EVERY room of your house for 24 hour surveillance of you and your family. Would you be okay with it? I mean, after all, if you've not doing anything wrong...

So, I'll ask again - would this be okay? Yes or no?

it was okay at the party on the patio...


its apples and oranges my good man

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by mrsbosco

Why do you think that we don't get it. We just get it in two different ways. I believe we live in a democracy. Why don't you want us to stop the possibility of terrorist attacks? The government does not have innocent people on their radar just waiting to jump on us for everyday talking, they want to stop death. Simple statement. Asking for simple response. Please don't be hateful or mean, I am really trying to understand your side.

Mrs. B: Its not fair to ask that question in that way. Its a tactic that the right wingers use all the time, and its not fair and illogical. The way you ask the question in bold presupposes that someone who is fighting to preserve civil rights ALSO doesn't want to stop terrorist attacks. Erroneous conclusion.

I for one am VERY interested in a strong national defense and strong national security. I want my government to do everything LEGAL in its power UNDER THE CONSTITUTION AND THE LAW to fight terrorism in any way it can!!!

Phrased somewhat differently then your question above, let me turn it around on you - "Why don't you support our constitution?"

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by StewartG

So, just to clarify, you are in favor of knowingly suspending our nation's constitution in a time of war?

By the way, what did you expect from Lincoln? He was a Republican!!!

What good are my constitutinal rights, if I am dead? You guys act like this is some sort of moot court, where it is all a game. We won! We won!

The President isn't doing these things because he wants to see what Stewart G does in his bedroom. These are targeted wiretaps, that specificaly look for terrorist activity. The FISA court can take up to 5 days to make a ruling. Meanwhile, people are going to die. You are so blinded by hate for Bush that you can't even see the real enemy, who does mean you harm. He won't give a shit about your civil rights, I can guarantee you that.

The ACLU and this judge will have the blood of the next victims on their hands.

Just to clarify, we should have paid off all of the slave owners for their "property"?

[Canard]

"The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures."

The quotation is from Junius, the pseudonym of an English writer of the 18th century. Only an informed public can defend itself against power seekers who threaten its freedoms.

"We owe it to our ancestors to preserve entire those rights, which they have delivered to our care: we owe it to our posterity, not to suffer their dearest inheritance to be destroyed."

What's the point of having a constitution and a bill of rights if you don't respect them. They are worth fighting for - even if you have to fight the enemy within.

[lulabell]

Originally Posted by StewartG

Mrsbosco: I am VERY sorry if I came across as mean - I did not mean to! I am just all torqued up about this, and I meant to come across as vehement. Not particularly to you, but to the OTHERS who are reading this thread... (You guys know who you are!)

Seriously, I apologize... I get way too torqued up by this stuff sometimes. Please believe me, I wasn't trying to be mean, just trying to continue to strongly make my point. I could see that you were just asking the question because you didn't know and weren't necessarily trying to argue about anything. Bottom line though, even if you WERE trying to argue, I *STILL* don't want to be mean!!! (I argue with friends sometimes, and we always remain friends.)

I am very, very sorry if I offended you or came across as mean. I "mean" it.

We cool...?

Yes sir we are. I am truely trying to understand. It just seems so simple to me. I guess I'm just not thinking on the level some of you are. I do respect your opionions and thanks for the nice reply.
Carla