Question about political discussions....

[Joana]

Okay......just to make sure this is understood in the right way: I do NOT want to start and actual political discussion here, no left vs. right vs. whatever.

I am only wondering about a possible cultural difference and would like to ask about it.

Let's put it this way: the subject of political threads being booooo or yay is one that has been going on for a bit now.
Indeed there often has been critisizm of Bush as he is the current leader, but other "non-Bush" threads also heated up. In the end usually a situation arises were a number of posters still like to argue while a number of others see critisizm and heated debate as bashing and get annoyed with it.
Now, here is what I've been wondering about: if someone saw my political view or whichever leader I support as wrong and critisized it/him/her I wouldn't see it as bashing but would just discuss with that person.
Example: I had numerous discussions, heated ones actually, within family and circle of friends about our political leaders here- but I would never accuse them of bashing although most of them supported someone else than I did and critisized the one I liked galore. Same for other political topics or world-topics.

So I am just wondering wether this shall we say "uneasiness" that arises in such threads has to do with a cultural difference, wether it is more untypical to discuss (and have heated discussions about) political topics in the US than f.e. in Europe.
As- if it were more uncommon to discuss such things "in the open" it would explain the uneasiness and misunderstanding of the critisizm I think......as it would be a topic seen much more personal and therefor critisizm would be seen on a much more personal level.

Sooo- esp. to the US folks......................how much were such discussions a part of your upbringing?? Could this be a reason why critisizm and heated discussion is going wrong or taken personally??

Just trying to understand.......................

[Rissask]

Good question, very respectfully worded...I often wonder the same thing.
I don't think it is so much a 'US thing' as it is just differences in upbringing styles between different families, really.
I know people who love to talk about 'ideas', politics, etc. And they are able to talk about them without getting personal or getting defensive, hurt, etc.
But then there are people who take everything personally, and perceives it as an 'attack' if someone disagrees with their viewpoint.
Sometimes Ito me, it seems that people who are unable to rationally and reasonably defend their stance through facts and logic, are more likely to react with anger, frustration, negativity, than people who have reason on their side- but that's just a theory I have.

[Banzoomba]

My father in-law and I come from opposite ends of the politcal spectrum......but we love to debate issuses......and many listening have thought we were fighting.....yea it does get a little loud sometimes.....but I feel we have learned alot from each other and we know when it gets to far.....the problem on the board sometimes is it very easy to take things the wrong way.....its hard to tell the emotion and the tone of the typed word even with smilies.....I think if we were sitting around a table.....we may get loud but I think emotions would not be tread on as much

[StewartG]

Fantastic question, and I'm looking forward to seeing some responses...

My guess is that there *is* a cultural difference. I would typically think of Europeans as being both more politically aware and more politically active. This may be because your parents' and grandparents' generation had one of the most important wars in world history fought in their backyard.

I would guess that Europeans are more apt to take a more active role in politics and political debate, because they have seen the results of political failures first hand.

On the other hand, the American political tradition has been quite tame. While there have been some significant political scandals in American history, a real modern political awakening did not occur in this country until Watergate in the early 70s. After that debacle, I think a deep sense of cynicism sunk into Americans in regard to politics. So much so that many Americans came to believe that MOST politicians are corrupt and dishonest to a certain extent, so political discourse is pretty much a waste of time. Growing up, I was aware of a political discourse around myself, my family and my friends, but nothing quite so heated as is going on today.

I suspect the heated reactions you see to politics and political discussions today come from a general political reawakening occurring across the country as OUR people see the effects their political choices being reflected in the war in Iraq. Furthermore, I think the upsurge in political activity (and sensitivity) in Americans may stem from a strong cultural divide in this country which is being created and furthered by the use of "wedge issues" in politics (gay marriage, abortion rights, etc.) These are issues with which people have VERY strong emotional reactions, and as they are drawn into the political realm, I believe those emotions get drawn into our collective consciousness in regard to politics as well.

Great question - thanks for bringing it up! I'll be VERY interested to see what others have to say!

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Joana

Let's put it this way: the subject of political threads being booooo or yay is one that has been going on for a bit now.
Indeed there often has been critisizm of Bush as he is the current leader, but other "non-Bush" threads also heated up. In the end usually a situation arises were a number of posters still like to argue while a number of others see critisizm and heated debate as bashing and get annoyed with it.
Now, here is what I've been wondering about: if someone saw my political view or whichever leader I support as wrong and critisized it/him/her I wouldn't see it as bashing but would just discuss with that person.
Example: I had numerous discussions, heated ones actually, within family and circle of friends about our political leaders here- but I would never accuse them of bashing although most of them supported someone else than I did and critisized the one I liked galore. Same for other political topics or world-topics.

So I am just wondering wether this shall we say "uneasiness" that arises in such threads has to do with a cultural difference, wether it is more untypical to discuss (and have heated discussions about) political topics in the US than f.e. in Europe.
As- if it were more uncommon to discuss such things "in the open" it would explain the uneasiness and misunderstanding of the critisizm I think......as it would be a topic seen much more personal and therefor critisizm would be seen on a much more personal level.

Sooo- esp. to the US folks......................how much were such discussions a part of your upbringing?? Could this be a reason why critisizm and heated discussion is going wrong or taken personally??

Just trying to understand.......................

Cultural difference. A common view in the States is that politics and religion should be avoided in social discussions, for example. I don't know if it's limited to the States (esp as opposed to Canada, for example), but based on such things and in comparison to what I've seen amongst more distant family and friends in Germany and Sweden and other parts of Europe, I'd say you're on target in thinking that people do take it personally and view criticism as bashing and get angry and pretty much all the rest of it. I mean rather than, say, the more sort of... well, tolerant, I guess, reaction that you describe among your family/friends.

That said, I also think Stewart's on to something, there. There's been a clear trend towards polarization of the populus in terms of political views over the past decade or two in the U.S. (though occasionally people deny that, for political reasoning, I think, as if to suggest that their views are more mainstream than they really are), and that adds a bit of gasoline to the fire, exacerbating during this particular period those more general socio-cultural tendencies.

Steve

[flowerBill]

I don't like the discussions for the reason Stewrt listed last- there is in my opinion an extreme philosophical division in the US on many issues and often discussion of differences only inflames things. No one changes their mind. I believe for both sides of this division there is extreme distaste for the direction the other side wants to take the country.

[TAPPY]

I agree with Riss on this part:

"I don't think it is so much a 'US thing' as it is just differences in upbringing styles between different families, really.
I know people who love to talk about 'ideas', politics, etc. And they are able to talk about them without getting personal or getting defensive, hurt, etc.
But then there are people who take everything personally, and perceives it as an 'attack' if someone disagrees with their viewpoint"

But did any one else notice this ?....It seems that most of the everyday political peep posters on this board are from the US ? I am guessing it is because the US has a lot of political poo to talk about !

And as Zoom posted ...sometimes it is hard to know if the person who is posting is joking around or just being rude. Most of the everyday political posters on this board (thinking of Jacko and PDS) do a good job of being respectful with out getting all self rightous and still manage to throw in a good zinger now and then !!!

It would be interesting to see a poll on political threads to see what the peeps really feel about them.

[MWC]

There are definitely differences, but I would hesitate to say it's strictly a European-American thing.

It gets back to how comfortable one is discussing issues in an intellectual, rather than an emotional, framework. I will paint with a broad brush and venture that Europeans have been trained right from the get-go (read: family dinner table) to understand that one can discuss issues, current events and current world players -- and have different viewpoints and share them -- without one's sense of self of sense of others' love for one's self being tied into it.

Americans (again painting with a broad brush) tend to wrap up one's whole gestalt of emotions in these arguments about current affairs. Our political campaigns have become so emotions-oriented, and so devoid of serious content, that our civi affiars have turned into one noisy disfunctional family.

Oddly enough, for our individualistic streak, there is also more of a "go-along-get-along" ethic in America, especially in terms of one's oral output.

Also, I thing there is, in America, right now, an enormous amount of "buyer's remorse" -- and, to paraphrase a bit, Hell hath no fury as a voter scorned.

Also, I think Zoomba brings up a good point. When these discussions are face-to-face, the outcome is a whole lot different than these online "chats." Conext is so important, especially in terms of inflection. There have been many times where I timed something with absolutely no malicious or mischevious intent, and I am surprised to see my words twisted around -- and I've seen that happen many times with others here, too.

[Icon oclast]

Originally Posted by flowerBill

I don't like the discussions for the reason Stewrt listed last- there is in my opinion an extreme philosophical division in the US on many issues and often discussion of differences only inflames things. No one changes their mind. I believe for both sides of this division there is extreme distaste for the direction the other side wants to take the country.

I think you hit the nail on the head about the extreme distaste and polarization. Peoples political views are based on their system of morals/ethics/religious beliefs or philosophy and bashing them in a way that demeans those systems is offensive. Both sides do it, I have done it. We should try and do better. I love talking politics, but we steer clear at home as we have a Marxist and a Nazi in the family. I am the moderate.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Icon oclast

I think you hit the nail on the head about the extreme distaste and polarization. Peoples political views are based on their system of morals/ethics/religious beliefs or philosophy and bashing them in a way that demeans those systems is offensive. Both sides do it, I have done it. We should try and do better. I love talking politics, but we steer clear at home as we have a Marxist and a Nazi in the family. I am the moderate.

(That's about that last point, there.)

But you're saying "bashing" too as if that's the only way it can be seen or something, no? Or the way it's usually seen, perhaps. I mean, I think what Joana's asking is something like, why must it (so often) be seen as bashing to express different views?

It's a good question, and one that I don't think can be answered so quickly and completely by just saying that people are emotional about their beliefs, because I'm sure people in Europe are emotional about their beliefs, too, and yet the cultures do seem to treat such discussions differently...

Steve

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by Icon oclast

I think you hit the nail on the head about the extreme distaste and polarization. Peoples political views are based on their system of morals/ethics/religious beliefs or philosophy and bashing them in a way that demeans those systems is offensive. Both sides do it, I have done it. We should try and do better. I love talking politics, but we steer clear at home as we have a Marxist and a Nazi in the family. I am the moderate.

[sctx]

I remember having political discussions with my parents about Viet Nam, the Iranian hostage crisis, bombing of the Beruit Marine barracks, and even the recent nuking of Dubai's bid to operate some port slips in the U.S., what I don't remember is a condescending attitude by any party involved. I do agree that the text format leads to alot of misunderstanding and knee jerk responses that otherwise probably wouldn't happen if the same discussion were held at a nice table at the Tequila Barrel on a warm Friday nite

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by Icon oclast

I think you hit the nail on the head about the extreme distaste and polarization. Peoples political views are based on their system of morals/ethics/religious beliefs or philosophy and bashing them in a way that demeans those systems is offensive. Both sides do it, I have done it. We should try and do better. I love talking politics, but we steer clear at home as we have a Marxist and a Nazi in the family. I am the moderate.

I wish there were some way we could get our politicians to take social "wedge" issues off the political table. If people weren't so busy arguing about issues like gay marriage and flag burning, we might be able to more successfully conduct a dialog about issues that really matter.

[Rissask]

Cultural difference. A common view in the States is that politics and religion should be avoided in social discussions, for example. I don't know if it's limited to the States (esp as opposed to Canada, for example), but based on such things and in comparison to what I've seen amongst more distant family and friends in Germany and Sweden and other parts of Europe, I'd say you're on target in thinking that people do take it personally and view criticism as bashing and get angry and pretty much all the rest of it. I mean rather than, say, the more sort of... well, tolerant, I guess, reaction that you describe among your family/friends.

I have been thinking about this some more....I think you may be right, when speaking generally, of course.

Many of my friends would rather talk about benign topics like shopping/clothes/relationships/gossip/latest TV shows rather than anything more controversial.

Part of the reasons for this?
Ignorance is one- when you never watch the news or read the paper, or if you didn't grow up discussing currents events and issues with yrou family, it would bore you.

Another is civility- we are also trained here in Canada to be polite and not make waves.

Basically- it's just a trait of well-to-do countries. You take things for granted, like our freedoms, etc.- we are spoiled!

And our scope of interest is very narrow- ourselves and our families, that's it.

I remember the days at university, when it was 'normal' to have heated discussions,e ven enouraged. *sigh* I miss those days.

[MaripositaII]

I remember the first few weeks after I landed in the US and started a political conversation with someone in Oklahoma. I was told that in the US, 'we don't discuss politics, religion, abortion or the death penalty.' Other than that, we can talk Then I figured it was just that one person, but after 20 years of living in this country, I have to say that many people in this part of the States (Oklahoma) still don't want to discuss or hear about any of the above issues, much less politics.
I came from a culture that would argue/discuss politics even if there was nothing to argue or discuss. I remember growing up listening to my father and his buddies arguing for hours on end about the same issues....I also remember seeing them together at the beach, having a rum and coke at gatherings and still being friends even though their political views were so different.
Cultural is what I think sometimes, because even our European and South American friends can argue or discuss politics without becoming enemies, getting their feelings hurt, or becoming depressed because someone is discussing politics for the umpteenth time.