Dutch Government Tolerant ??

[Mr Cancun]

Dutch Government Proposes Ban on Burqua


THE HAGUE, Netherlands - The Dutch government announced plans Friday for legislation banning full-length veils in public places and other clothing that covers the face — putting the Netherlands at the forefront of a general European hardening toward Muslim minorities.
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The Netherlands, once considered one of Europe's most welcoming nations for immigrants and asylum seekers, is deeply divided over moves by the government to stem the tide of new arrivals and compel immigrants to assimilate into Dutch society.

"The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing — including the burqa — is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens," Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said.

Basing the order on security concerns apparently was intended to respond to warnings that outlawing clothing like the all-enveloping burqa, worn by some Muslim women, could violate the constitutional guarantee against religious discrimination.

The main Dutch Muslim organization CMO has been critical of any possible ban. The idea was "an overreaction to a very marginal problem" because hardly any Dutch women wear burqas anyway, said Ayhan Tonca of the CMO. "It's just ridiculous."

In the past, a majority of the Dutch parliament has said it would approve a ban on burqas, but opinion polls ahead of national elections Nov. 22 suggest a shift away from that position, and it is unclear if a majority in the new parliament would still back the government-proposed ban.

The issue has resonance throughout Europe. Former British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw recently caused a stir by saying he wants Muslim women to abandon the full-face veil — a view endorsed by Prime Minister
Tony Blair. In France, the center-right's leading presidential candidate Nicolas Sarkozy has increasingly been adopting some of the rhetoric of the extreme-right.

In Holland, policies associated with the nationalist fringe in 2002 have been co-opted by the center: holding asylum-seekers in detention centers, more muscle for the police and intelligence services, and visa examinations that require would-be immigrants to watch videos of homosexuals kissing and of topless women on the beach. Everyone must learn to speak Dutch, and Muslim clerics must mind what they say in their Friday sermons for fear of deportation.

The issue was given added urgency with the 2004 slaying of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim fanatic and the failed attempt to expel a Somali-born critic of Islam of her Dutch citizenship.

About 1 million Muslims live in the Netherlands, about 6 percent of the population of 16 million, but only a few hundred are believed to regularly wear a burqa.

After France banned the wearing of head scarves in public schools, the Dutch government decided to leave that question up to individual schools. Most allow head scarves.

The city of Utrecht has cut some welfare benefits to unemployed women who insist on wearing burqas to job interviews. The city claimed the women were using the burqa to avoid working, since they knew they would not be hired.

[Jacko]

So is this where the terrorists are leading us?....Governments should start banning items of clothing that people wear that do not in themselves, prevent them from doing a specific job, cause harm to anyone else etc?....If it is different than the supposed "norm" than it should be banned? Security concern? C'mon.....

Lets hope that the the people who support this type of discrimination, first don't ever get the power they need to carry it out and second, if they do, don't start caring about people with tatoos, or men with long hair, or women with really short hair, or people that wear yamakas, or anything that might make one considered "different" from the "norm" and thus dangerous by decree, rather than by action.

(Ya big spooner you! )

[MWC]

Sorry, Jacko, but I think you are being a bit naive. The pressures that will be facing Western Europe from their Muslim communities are finally forcing those governments to take action. To preserve their Western cultures, I think it proper that they do so. It is high time that the Muslim communities, in turn, moderate their radical elements to be able to take their rightful place among these European countries that have been so welcoming to them.

Burkas are much different from body piercings, tattoos and the like -- in that you cannot hide anything under tattoos, piercings, etc. I always though a perfect disguise for a terrorist would be to wear a burqa. You could be armed to the teeth under one, and who the hell would know?

I think European governments are well-advised to be taking steps to re-assert the primacy of their countries' cultures.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by MWC

Sorry, Jacko, but I think you are being a bit naive. The pressures that will be facing Western Europe from their Muslim communities are finally forcing those governments to take action. To preserve their Western cultures, I think it proper that they do so. It is high time that the Muslim communities, in turn, moderate their radical elements to be able to take their rightful place among these European countries that have been so welcoming to them.

Burkas are much different from body piercings, tattoos and the like -- in that you cannot hide anything under tattoos, piercings, etc. I always though a perfect disguise for a terrorist would be to wear a burqa. You could be armed to the teeth under one, and who the hell would know?

I think European governments are well-advised to be taking steps to re-assert the primacy of their countries' cultures.

I understand your fear....so shall we also outlaw trenchcoats?

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by Mr Cancun

Dutch Government Proposes Ban on Burqua


THE HAGUE, Netherlands - The Dutch government announced plans Friday for legislation banning full-length veils in public places and other clothing that covers the face — putting the Netherlands at the forefront of a general European hardening toward Muslim minorities.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Netherlands, once considered one of Europe's most welcoming nations for immigrants and asylum seekers, is deeply divided over moves by the government to stem the tide of new arrivals and compel immigrants to assimilate into Dutch society.

"The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing — including the burqa — is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens," Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said.

Basing the order on security concerns apparently was intended to respond to warnings that outlawing clothing like the all-enveloping burqa, worn by some Muslim women, could violate the constitutional guarantee against religious discrimination.

The main Dutch Muslim organization CMO has been critical of any possible ban. The idea was "an overreaction to a very marginal problem" because hardly any Dutch women wear burqas anyway, said Ayhan Tonca of the CMO. "It's just ridiculous."

In the past, a majority of the Dutch parliament has said it would approve a ban on burqas, but opinion polls ahead of national elections Nov. 22 suggest a shift away from that position, and it is unclear if a majority in the new parliament would still back the government-proposed ban.

The issue has resonance throughout Europe. Former British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw recently caused a stir by saying he wants Muslim women to abandon the full-face veil — a view endorsed by Prime Minister
Tony Blair. In France, the center-right's leading presidential candidate Nicolas Sarkozy has increasingly been adopting some of the rhetoric of the extreme-right.

In Holland, policies associated with the nationalist fringe in 2002 have been co-opted by the center: holding asylum-seekers in detention centers, more muscle for the police and intelligence services, and visa examinations that require would-be immigrants to watch videos of homosexuals kissing and of topless women on the beach. Everyone must learn to speak Dutch, and Muslim clerics must mind what they say in their Friday sermons for fear of deportation.

The issue was given added urgency with the 2004 slaying of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim fanatic and the failed attempt to expel a Somali-born critic of Islam of her Dutch citizenship.

About 1 million Muslims live in the Netherlands, about 6 percent of the population of 16 million, but only a few hundred are believed to regularly wear a burqa.

After France banned the wearing of head scarves in public schools, the Dutch government decided to leave that question up to individual schools. Most allow head scarves.

The city of Utrecht has cut some welfare benefits to unemployed women who insist on wearing burqas to job interviews. The city claimed the women were using the burqa to avoid working, since they knew they would not be hired.

The person that your avatar advocates would have been against burkas or anything religious. So I think that maybe you are complaining about something just to complain about.

[sctx]

Originally Posted by Jacko

I understand your fear....so shall we also outlaw trenchcoats?

and mumus too......those large Polynesian women can be pretty scary

[dartay]

Originally Posted by Jacko

Security concern? C'mon.....

So a masked man walks into a bank....... oh wait it's just a Muslim girl in a burkah.

There are legitimate security concerns.

We should let them take their drivers license photo in a burkah? This debate is going on in California now.

Freedom of expression and hiding your face are 2 separate things.

I tend to agree with you that it can lead to a slippery slope. I am the aforementioned guy with long hair. I get the random drug sniff almost everytime I fly but that's the price you pay.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by dartay

So a masked man walks into a bank....... oh wait it's just a Muslim girl in a burkah.

There are legitimate security concerns.

We should let them take their drivers license photo in a burkah? This debate is going on in California now.

Freedom of expression and hiding your face are 2 separate things.

I tend to agree with you that it can lead to a slippery slope. I am the aforementioned guy with long hair. I get the random drug sniff almost everytime I fly but that's the price you pay.

How does seeing a person's face stop a bank robber? I mean with today's goodies....a simple pair of sunglasses, fake mustache and wig would do the same thing......course the gal would look a tad bit more scary wearing those I suppose. We could outlaw all of those things too...but I'd still be more concerned about their trenchcoat or mumus.

[PlayadelSoul]

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld...n/15817636.htm

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld...n/15817636.htm

I have no problem requiring that a veil be removed when there are specific and necessary reasons to do that and it is done with respect.....as naive as I may be, outlawing them altogether in public is just not right.....but those trenchcoats and mumus....I would get rid of those suckers!

[sctx]

Originally Posted by Jacko

.....but those trenchcoats and mumus....I would get rid of those suckers!

can you please add Oklahoma Sooner sweatshirts to that list

[Mr Cancun]

Would this be a job, for say,the new House Speaker to bring up here in the USA?
I think it might be a great law, separate church from everything??

[Icon oclast]

Originally Posted by Mr Cancun

Would this be a job, for say,the new House Speaker to bring up here in the USA?
I think it might be a great law, separate church from everything??

No, she should be forced to wear one before we have to look at her botox melting on a hot day.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by sctx

can you please add Oklahoma Sooner sweatshirts to that list

For the moment I am interested in outlawing Buckeye sweatshirts...but we will take care of that tomorrow .....RIP Bo, they will make him proud!

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by sctx

and mumus too......those large Polynesian women can be pretty scary

Were you watching Survivor last night?

How big a problem is this, really, in Holland, I wonder?

There are quite a few female Muslim immigrants here who wear head scarves, that is very commonplace; but I have yet to see anyone here with their face completely covered, or just the eyes showing.

Much ado about nothing, I fear.

I do think it is a reasonable law to have; to require that people's faces be visible. Not so much for safety reasons, but how can people relate to others or interact effectively when you can't even see their face?