Thanking god for miracles (possibly contentious)

[Rissask]

Okay, so someone in another thread brought up a good point that I often wonder about...out of respect I am starting a new thread. (Mercy this is totally unrelated to the specific situation of your son's accident; I am very glad he escaped serious injury or death. )

Do people say things like 'god was looking out for him or her' and 'it was a miracle' because of habit or because it is something comforting to say, they are so relieved and grateful, ordo they literally think god had a hand in it?

Do you believe god picks and chooses who to help and who to not help?

If someone dies, is that because they deserved it, and god is punishing them...or god wasn't paying attention, or what? (Which begs the question- if god is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, then 'not paying attention' is not an option, right? )

It always seemed odd to me, like if god has the power to save someone from an accident, then why not just prevent the accident in the first place? Or if he controls everything, why do accidents even happen at all?

Either he is really all knowing and all powerful, and must pick and choose-in which case the only conclusion with all the suffering and senseless deaths in the world is that he is terribly cruel or vengeful or uncaring.....or he is powerless to control anything and it is all random, so why bother praying or believing in a god at all?

I guess I just find it somewhat puzzling to thank god for things when by all appearances he was asleep on the job to start with, or exhibiting favourtism or something. And if I were a believer who had lost someone I loved in a similar situation- I think I'd find it offensive, like god helped so-and-so and let my loved one die?

No need for this to devolve into defensive angry postings...I am truly interested in the thought process and rationalization of the whole topic.
It just is so baffling to me...an example is when the tsunami killed over 200,000 in Indonesia, and people said "Thank God it wasn't worse." I was like, "HUH?" Make a call- either he can interfere..or he can't.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Okay, so someone in another thread brought up a good point that I often wonder about...out of respect I am starting a new thread. (Mercy this is totally unrelated to the specific situation of your son's accident; I am very glad he escaped serious injury or death. )

Do people say things like 'god was looking out for him or her' and 'it was a miracle' because of habit or because it is something comforting to say, they are so relieved and grateful, ordo they literally think god had a hand in it?

Do you believe god picks and chooses who to help and who to not help?

If someone dies, is that because they deserved it, and god is punishing them...or god wasn't paying attention, or what? (Which begs the question- if god is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, then 'not paying attention' is not an option, right? )

It always seemed odd to me, like if god has the power to save someone from an accident, then why not just prevent the accident in the first place? Or if he controls everything, why do accidents even happen at all?

Either he is really all knowing and all powerful, and must pick and choose-in which case the only conclusion with all the suffering and senseless deaths in the world is that he is terribly cruel or vengeful or uncaring.....or he is powerless to control anything and it is all random, so why bother praying or believing in a god at all?

I guess I just find it somewhat puzzling to thank god for things when by all appearances he was asleep on the job to start with, or exhibiting favourtism or something. And if I were a believer who had lost someone I loved in a similar situation- I think I'd find it offensive, like god helped so-and-so and let my loved one die?

No need for this to devolve into defensive angry postings...I am truly interested in the thought process and rationalization of the whole topic.
It just is so baffling to me...an example is when the tsunami killed over 200,000 in Indonesia, and people said "Thank God it wasn't worse." I was like, "HUH?" Make a call- either he can interfere..or he can't.

Yep, you're right.....contentious.

I understand your question though, it is the constant struggle of those of faith.

[Ginger]

I tip my hat to you Maggie, for having the foresight and decency to start a new thread for this topic and not tainting Mercy's happy thread.

[NorthMinnesota]

nevermind!

[pamplemoose77]

well... for me (obviously i can't speak for all believers)... yes, i do believe God is in control of everything. i believe that humans have the gift of freewill to mess things up for themselves.. but that ultimately God still has a plan for my life. If my 19 year old daughter was killed in a car accident, it would suck.. it would hurt.. i would be sad.. i would be mad... i would wonder why God let that happen. I don't believe that people die because they "deserve it"... however, in my Christian belief system, if my daughter is Christian (which she is), i would ultimately rejoice that she had passed on to heaven. The sadness I felt would be over my own loss.. not over her death.

Further, I believe everything happens for a reason. It just might be that her death spurs me on to start a campaign and save another child's life. It might be that somebody I meet online offering me condolences later becomes my best friend. It might be that that online somebody later comes to be a Christian as well. It might be that I'll never know why she died... and I'm ok with that option as well.

I can look back at many sad events in my life that at the time had me shaking my fists and yelling "WHY GOD? WHY?"... but now that they are passed, I can see His handiwork in all of them.

I understand that this is not everybody's belief system... and that not even every Christian will believe as I do... and I am ok with that. It is not my job to personally convince the entire world that there is a God, there is a Savior... It is not my job to judge ANYBODY... that is a huge petpeeve of mine... It is my job to love those that I come in contact with... and I hope that this post was read in the manner it was written... and that it will be answered in the same manner....

[Icon oclast]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Okay, so someone in another thread brought up a good point that I often wonder about...out of respect I am starting a new thread. (Mercy this is totally unrelated to the specific situation of your son's accident; I am very glad he escaped serious injury or death. )

Do people say things like 'god was looking out for him or her' and 'it was a miracle' because of habit or because it is something comforting to say, they are so relieved and grateful, ordo they literally think god had a hand in it?

Do you believe god picks and chooses who to help and who to not help?

If someone dies, is that because they deserved it, and god is punishing them...or god wasn't paying attention, or what? (Which begs the question- if god is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, then 'not paying attention' is not an option, right? )

It always seemed odd to me, like if god has the power to save someone from an accident, then why not just prevent the accident in the first place? Or if he controls everything, why do accidents even happen at all?

Either he is really all knowing and all powerful, and must pick and choose-in which case the only conclusion with all the suffering and senseless deaths in the world is that he is terribly cruel or vengeful or uncaring.....or he is powerless to control anything and it is all random, so why bother praying or believing in a god at all?

I guess I just find it somewhat puzzling to thank god for things when by all appearances he was asleep on the job to start with, or exhibiting favourtism or something. And if I were a believer who had lost someone I loved in a similar situation- I think I'd find it offensive, like god helped so-and-so and let my loved one die?

No need for this to devolve into defensive angry postings...I am truly interested in the thought process and rationalization of the whole topic.
It just is so baffling to me...an example is when the tsunami killed over 200,000 in Indonesia, and people said "Thank God it wasn't worse." I was like, "HUH?" Make a call- either he can interfere..or he can't.

People say these things for all of the above reasons. We are just a speck of dust on the ass of the universe. There may or may not be a supreme being but acknowledging a higher power than ourselves seems logical. We are not all that.

[jamesblonde]

I believe that there is a time for life and a time for death. We have no control over it. In 1997 my 3 yr. old niece ran out in front of a car and was killed instantly. My brother and his wife never blamed god for not watching her, instead they turned toward their faith and now we all know we have a sweet little angel in heaven. I understand how some feel differently. "How could god have let this happen"? I choose to believe that he is there and that he chooses the time to call us home.

On a side note: A friend of mine had a daughter and 2 granddaughter's that were involved in a very tragic accident (drunk driver again). One of the girls was 3 at the time. Her heart stopped during the surgery. They revived her. After she regained conciousness, she told her mom that she went to a place and Jesus was there and that it was really warm and bright. She said that she didn't want to come back, but Jesus said that she had too because her mommy still needed her. This was a non-religious family. And a 3 yr old girl. That was enough and still is enough to convince me.

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by jamesblonde

After she regained conciousness, she told her mom that she went to a place and Jesus was there and that it was really warm and bright. She said that she didn't want to come back, but Jesus said that she had too because her mommy still needed her. This was a non-religious family. And a 3 yr old girl. That was enough and still is enough to convince me.

wow, jami... that gives me some serious goosebumps!!!

[jamesblonde]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

wow, jami... that gives me some serious goosebumps!!!

Yeah, it stills gives them to me too!

[NorthMinnesota]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

well... for me (obviously i can't speak for all believers)... yes, i do believe God is in control of everything. i believe that humans have the gift of freewill to mess things up for themselves.. but that ultimately God still has a plan for my life. If my 19 year old daughter was killed in a car accident, it would suck.. it would hurt.. i would be sad.. i would be mad... i would wonder why God let that happen. I don't believe that people die because they "deserve it"... however, in my Christian belief system, if my daughter is Christian (which she is), i would ultimately rejoice that she had passed on to heaven. The sadness I felt would be over my own loss.. not over her death.

Further, I believe everything happens for a reason. It just might be that her death spurs me on to start a campaign and save another child's life. It might be that somebody I meet online offering me condolences later becomes my best friend. It might be that that online somebody later comes to be a Christian as well. It might be that I'll never know why she died... and I'm ok with that option as well.

I can look back at many sad events in my life that at the time had me shaking my fists and yelling "WHY GOD? WHY?"... but now that they are passed, I can see His handiwork in all of them.

I understand that this is not everybody's belief system... and that not even every Christian will believe as I do... and I am ok with that. It is not my job to personally convince the entire world that there is a God, there is a Savior... It is not my job to judge ANYBODY... that is a huge petpeeve of mine... It is my job to love those that I come in contact with... and I hope that this post was read in the manner it was written... and that it will be answered in the same manner....

I'm glad I checked back on this thread. Nicely said!

[Mercy]

Pamplemoose said it nicely. As a Christian myself, I do believe God was watching over my son the other night at the accident, and I give Him all praise for his grace and mercy.

However, if things had turned out differently, I could not be mad at God. I know He does not "cause" bad things to happen to people, but does "allow" them to happen. This is due to sin that entered into the world (don't want to get into a big theological thing about sin) that affects all of us. But I would be sad and I even may get angry for a season, that is all a part of grief.

I have put my trust in God and Jesus no matter what. The Bible says that it "rains on the just and the unjust", meaning that bad things happen to the good and not so good, those who have chosen to follow Him and those who have not. The Bible also says that He never leaves us or forsakes us, so I know that God was not "asleep on the job" the other night when my son had his accident.

[osuchic10]

I never post anymore but I visit a lot and wanted to comment on this thread. Pampelmoose, I just wanted to tell you that I think that is the most awesome explanation I have ever heard. I feel 100% the way that you do and when I read the initial post I thought, man I'd like to respond but how would I say it? Then I read yours and there it was Just wanted to tell you how awesome I think that was.

Also, in reading the rest of the posts, about the little girl seeing Jesus...I wanted to recommend a book (for anyone interested ) called "90 Minutes in Heaven" by Don Piper and Cecil Murphey. It's a true story of a man that is in a horrific car accident and his experience - very similar it seems to the 3 year old jamesblonde talked about.

Just my 2 cents

[Rissask]

I believe that there is a time for life and a time for death. We have no control over it. In 1997 my 3 yr. old niece ran out in front of a car and was killed instantly. My brother and his wife never blamed god for not watching her, instead they turned toward their faith and now we all know we have a sweet little angel in heaven. I understand how some feel differently. "How could god have let this happen"? I choose to believe that he is there and that he chooses the time to call us home.

That is so heartrending.....there was a similar story here last year, my boss's distant relative was backing out of his driveway and hit and killed his 2 year old son. I can't imagine how horrible that would be.
I guess any way people can lessen it, if it works for them, great.

Thanks Charity. Well put.
Even though I don't agree, I do like the way you worded it. Yes, we do all have our own belief systems, and should respect that, I do struggle with that sometimes.

'Everything happens for a reason.'....funny you said that, because that's another thing that has always bugged me, really.

I think some things happen for a reason, as a result of bad choices or bad actions, for example (like a drunk driving accident's cause) but often some things are just random bad luck, bad timing, whatever. Like a child running out in front of traffic or someone getting cancer. No one to blame, just a random tragedy.

There is simply no possible good reason in my mind, why a two year old child should die, for example. And when I hear someone trying to justify or excuse it, I understand that it's pain that motivates them, but I can't agree with that. KWIM? Like, maybe some good would come out of it, but it is still not preferable to it not happening in the first place.

People say these things for all of the above reasons. We are just a speck of dust on the ass of the universe. There may or may not be a supreme being but acknowledging a higher power than ourselves seems logical. We are not all that.

Funny how it all depends how you look at things.
To me, while I agree we are 'not all that', it's a belief in the Christian god and 'man being made in his image', man being the reason for the universe, that is the arrogant one somehow.
And that aknowleging that we are an insignificant speck of dust and are just a random accident, no one created us, that is the truly humble view.

[Tommygurl]

I don't believe in God. I believe in miracles but I don't believe they come from someone named God.

Take two mothers whose children are dying of cancer....One lives..one dies...I would not believe in a "god" who would grant a miracle to one child but not the other...Sorry there is too much suffering in this world for me to believe in an "almighty power" from up above....

I believe that we are the almighty power over ourselves....we make our own heaven or hell by the choices we make....

Okay i will stop now.

[MaripositaII]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Okay, so someone in another thread brought up a good point that I often wonder about...out of respect I am starting a new thread. (Mercy this is totally unrelated to the specific situation of your son's accident; I am very glad he escaped serious injury or death. )

Do people say things like 'god was looking out for him or her' and 'it was a miracle' because of habit or because it is something comforting to say, they are so relieved and grateful, ordo they literally think god had a hand in it?

Do you believe god picks and chooses who to help and who to not help?

If someone dies, is that because they deserved it, and god is punishing them...or god wasn't paying attention, or what? (Which begs the question- if god is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, then 'not paying attention' is not an option, right? )

It always seemed odd to me, like if god has the power to save someone from an accident, then why not just prevent the accident in the first place? Or if he controls everything, why do accidents even happen at all?

Either he is really all knowing and all powerful, and must pick and choose-in which case the only conclusion with all the suffering and senseless deaths in the world is that he is terribly cruel or vengeful or uncaring.....or he is powerless to control anything and it is all random, so why bother praying or believing in a god at all?

I guess I just find it somewhat puzzling to thank god for things when by all appearances he was asleep on the job to start with, or exhibiting favourtism or something. And if I were a believer who had lost someone I loved in a similar situation- I think I'd find it offensive, like god helped so-and-so and let my loved one die?

No need for this to devolve into defensive angry postings...I am truly interested in the thought process and rationalization of the whole topic.
It just is so baffling to me...an example is when the tsunami killed over 200,000 in Indonesia, and people said "Thank God it wasn't worse." I was like, "HUH?" Make a call- either he can interfere..or he can't.

Good topic. I think many believers struggle with things like this....why did my brother have to die at age 16? I asked that many times. My mother's faith was shaken, but she eventually used the same faith that she questioned to help her through it. I find myself questioning, getting angry, doubting (I'm a believer), and when I chatted with my priest and deacon over dinner (they're like friends), we get into wonderful discussions about our faith. Even our priest has his moments of questioning and doubting. His sister died recently from a rare form of cancer, and no amount of praying helped her. But it is his faith that is helping him through his loss. A test he calls it. As father would say, "I'd be worried if you believed and accepted blindly...we need to question and continue seeking the answers...it's through the doubt and confusion that we learn to be strong and become true believers." Sounded good to me...the acknowledgement of my doubts and questions.
Whether we believe or not, none of us truly know why some things happen to others and why some escape (like 9/11 for example). Sure people say they have the answers because they believe, but you don't really know for sure until you die...even then, do we really know where we go? It's comforting to think that we do though, otherwise as my mother said, "you can drive yourself crazy"....so she goes back to believing that she'll meet my father one day.

I try to keep an open mind and have no fear of questions like yours. My Maxxie has cancer and is suffering. I pray for him, but then the Serenity Prayer comes to mind and I feel that what is to be will be, in spite of my trying and I have to accept the things I cannot change. Now I'm more confused. The middle path is what I seek. Not the extremes in belief systems.

You're one of my favourite people on this board Rissy, because you sometimes force us to think and question. That is uncomfortable for some. Not for me though.