USA Presidential Politics - 2008

[Jacko]

Very interesting article here IMO ..."The unknown: Is Obama Ready?"

[ryberg]

Yes, interesting... If you will just allow me to decimate.

First and foremost, the entire gist of this article immediately calls to mind my question a couple pages back -- here it is, actually -- about whether Bush didn't have less international experience than Obama does now when Bush took office. However much elephants may prefer to forget such points, Bush was woefully inexperienced, and yet Obama has an impressive record in this area (not counting his personal life experience) in just a short period in the U.S. Senate (see my post). Nevertheless, the article makes no such comparison, however obvious it may be, but does provide a scary quote like this from a Republican on the point:

"Obama has a great intellect and the leadership characteristics of our great American presidents," said state Sen. Kirk Dillard, a Republican who befriended Obama in Springfield. "But the unknown is the administrative and foreign policy experience."

Then greatly furthering the notion that the author may not be all that fair and unbiased, here, if not just pushing a hidden agenda (or at least doing poor research), he goes straight down that "say it enough times and people may believe it's true" road, citing and leaving to stand as objective truth with no further explanation a scare story whipped up by the National Republican Senatorial Committee in their opposition research on Obama:

Still, he once voted against requiring medical care for aborted fetuses who survive.

In a passage very illustrative of politics in general and how little one should believe even about voting records, Obama explains (see pp 132-33 of his second book) that this is one of several such politics-as-usual misrepresentations about his voting record created by Republicans:

As is standard practice these days, the National Republican Senatorial Committee had prepared a fat binder of opposition research on me before I was even nominated, and my own research team spent many hours combing through my record in an effort to anticipate what negative ads the Republicans might have up their sleeves.

The didn't find a lot, but they found enough to do the trick -- a dozen or so votes that, if described without context, could be made to sound pretty scary. There was the criminal law bill that purported to crack down on drug dealing in schools but had been so poorly drafted that I concluded it was both ineffective and unconstitutional [and he taught constitutional law at the U of Chicago, by the way] -- "Obama voted to weaken penalties on gang-bangers who deal drugs in schools," is how the poll described it. There was a bill sponsored by antiabortion activists that on its face sounded reasonable enough -- it mandated lifesaving measures for premature babies (the bill didn't mention that such measures were already the law) -- but also extended "personhood" to pre-viable fetuses, thereby effectively overturning Roe v. Wade; in the the poll, I was said to have "voted to deny lifesaving treatment to babies born alive."

Rounding it all out, you have some standard issue rhetorical tactics, perhaps to heighten the sheer "fear" factor consistent with the author's approach: he includes lots of positive stuff about Obama's leadership and compromise skills, highlighting his bipartisan approach and compliments from Republicans, but shoves it all to the very end, where it is only seen by those who skip down 4-5 screens and read the whole thing:

While he was never a Senate leader, Obama did lead. He helped pass ethics laws in a scandal-plagued state and won tax credits for the working poor. On racial profiling and the death penalty, he negotiated with Republicans and police chiefs on bills that chipped away at both institutions.

Though these were small steps rather than grand reforms, Obama impressed Republicans and Democrats alike with hard work and a soft touch.

Laimutis Nargelenas, a lobbyist with the Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police, said Obama broke a logjam over racial profiling legislation when he volunteered to make his case personally to the chiefs.

Nargelenas is used to Democrats drawing a line in the sand and declaring war. Not Obama. "The thing we noticed about Obama is he's a willing listener," Nargelenas said.

When Democrats took over the Senate, Obama still did not throw his weight around. "While I'm in a position that I can run this bill through, I don't want to do that," he told Nargelenas. They compromised on a bill that, rather than end racial profiling, commissioned a study and required police to record the race of people they stop.

Nargelenas, a rock-ribbed Republican, can see himself voting for Obama in 2008.

"I think he's ready to move up," Nargelenas said.

Then a single undercut of that whole thing:

He paused for a moment, then copped to some doubt. "It is a big leap."

How'd I do?

Steve

[Just Lucky]

Ryberg quote

How'd I do?]

I think you did great. I read the same article a couple days ago somewhere else. Great political propaganda trying to exploit and create doubts.

[sctx]

so far, I've got Obama as first choice, Rudi as 2nd, and no desire at all to vote for any of the others.....but these rankings may change when Fred declares

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by sctx

so far, I've got Obama as first choice, Rudi as 2nd, and no desire at all to vote for any of the others.....but these rankings may change when Fred declares

So that "Obama looks good" comment in your under the influence post a week or so ago wasn't just, you know, an under the influence comment?

(understanding that it's still very early and all that, of course)

Steve

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

Ryberg quote

I think you did great. I read the same article a couple days ago somewhere else. Great political propaganda trying to exploit and create doubts.

Me too!

[sctx]

Originally Posted by ryberg

So that "Obama looks good" comment in your under the influence post a week or so ago wasn't just, you know, an under the influence comment?

(understanding that it's still very early and all that, of course)

Steve

no, he appears to be very sincere and honest about his beliefs, that goes alot further w/ me than actual policy stances.......personally, I see Hillary, Edwards, and McCain as saying anything they need to to get votes...ala Bill.....that stuff makes me wanna puke and won't even get me to the polling booth if that's the choices I'm left to deal with

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

I think you did great. I read the same article a couple days ago somewhere else. Great political propaganda trying to exploit and create doubts.

Thanks! That means a lot, coming from someone of your academic/critical leanings (criticism being, as you know, as inevitable as breathing). I even got your references to Thorstein Veblen and the IWW the other day, having ages ago written a (craptacular!) undergraduate honors thesis on Dos Passos' U.S.A. Trilogy.

Anyway, Jacko, I wasn't trying to rain on your parade or anything. And in fairness to that author, I fear that he may not have had so much any overt political bias as he is just following the prevalent trend of highlighting the fear and burying the good news.

Originally Posted by sctx

no, he appears to be very sincere and honest about his beliefs, that goes alot further w/ me than actual policy stances.......personally, I see Hillary, Edwards, and McCain as saying anything they need to to get votes...ala Bill.....that stuff makes me wanna puke and won't even get me to the polling booth if that's the choices I'm left to deal with

Wow! I would add a number of Republicans in the latter type, as well -- probably more than Democrats, if the truth be told -- but I very much agree with the bolded part.

In fact I mentioned as much in referring to the difference between Clinton's and Obama's responses in the previous debate about whether the world was safer today as a result of Iraq or not, her taking the seemingly safer answer and him the riskier one (regardless of what one happens to feel on the point in question). I would add, though not without caution, that I think specific experience of the type people usually have in mind in such situations is easily and often overrated as a measure of suitability, in the same vein as that comment of yours about actual policy stances.

Geez, that's 1 point I agree with you on and 2 points I agree with Stogey on in just about 3 days, here.

Steve

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Thanks! That means a lot, coming from someone of your academic/critical leanings (criticism being, as you know, as inevitable as breathing). I even got your references to Thorstein Veblen and the IWW the other day, having ages ago written a (craptacular!) undergraduate honors thesis on Dos Passos' U.S.A. Trilogy.

Anyway, Jacko, I wasn't trying to rain on your parade or anything. And in fairness to that author, I fear that he may not have had so much any overt political bias as he is just following the prevalent trend of highlighting the fear and burying the good news.

Wow! I would add a number of Republicans in the latter type, as well -- probably more than Democrats, if the truth be told -- but I very much agree with the bolded part.

In fact I mentioned as much in referring to the difference between Clinton's and Obama's responses in the previous debate about whether the world was safer today as a result of Iraq or not, her taking the seemingly safer answer and him the riskier one (regardless of what one happens to feel on the point in question). I would add, though not without caution, that I think specific experience of the type people usually have in mind in such situations is easily and often overrated as a measure of suitability, in the same vein as that comment of yours about actual policy stances.

Geez, that's 1 point I agree with you on and 2 points I agree with Stogey on in just about 3 days, here.

Steve

Hey, no sweat..its all political punditry anyway....

Actually, what I found most interesting had not so much to do with Obama as the state of politics in general.....

"Sometimes, in order to maintain your position with your constituency you have to vote in a different way than your own mind will tell you," said retired state Sen. Denny Jacobs, one of the close pals. Jacobs was explaining why he believes Obama cast votes that were more liberal than he actually was. It was an unusually frank analysis of how politicians — even one such as Obama who claims he is above politics — often trim their views to appease constituents.

"You're always a little tainted," Jacobs said, "and I think he comes from a district that is a little different than he actually believed."

Obama could be as calculating as they come. He promoted himself as a defender of abortion rights, but he encouraged fellow Democrats to vote "present" on abortion bills. Friends say the strategy was designed to protect lawmakers, including Obama, with designs on higher offices.

Still, he once voted against requiring medical care for aborted fetuses who survive.

Obama proposed a constitutional amendment to mandate universal health care. It lacked detail and he settled for a task force to study the issue.

Sen. Kimberly Lightford, who entered the state Senate shortly after Obama, recalls walking into Obama's law office and asking for advice after winning her Democratic primary. "I'm, like, very naive and think I can fix the world — come here and change things overnight," she said. Obama curbed her enthusiasm.

[sctx]

Originally Posted by ryberg

her taking the seemingly safer answer and him the riskier one (regardless of what one happens to feel on the point in question).

I like Kucinich in that matter as well, he puts it out there ......but I also feel that he doesn't have the personal character to be President.......same goes for Joe L.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by sctx

I like Kucinich in that matter as well, he puts it out there ......but I also feel that he doesn't have the personal character to be President.......same goes for Joe L.

That seems corroborated by that peace sign bit:



Steve

[Just Lucky]

Steve, You are either kidding or too kind in your compliment of me above.

I sent the thousand dollars to you via Paypal

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

Steve, You are either kidding or too kind in your compliment of me above.

I sent the thousand dollars to you via Paypal

Not kidding!

Steve

[horizon200]

Originally Posted by sctx

so far, I've got Obama as first choice, Rudi as 2nd, and no desire at all to vote for any of the others.....but these rankings may change when Fred declares

Saw a poll today that has Fred at 19 points...barely ahead of McCain who is at 18. But for someone that hasn't declared....

It will be interesting to see who does what as we get closer.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by horizon200

Saw a poll today that has Fred at 19 points...barely ahead of McCain who is at 18. But for someone that hasn't declared....

It will be interesting to see who does what as we get closer.

Sounds a lot like Gore!