USA Presidential Politics - 2008

[roni]

Originally Posted by melliedee

No thanks to her and her insistance on claiming that unelectibility case for him. You really think this is a selfless act for the good of the party and not about wanting to win, or feeling her "turn" was stolen by an upstart?

I think most human behavior is complex and motivated by multiple factors. I do not believe most of our decisions can be attributed to just one thing, and many times not even to one main thing.

That is what I think. I do not think, however, that she believes her "turn" was stolen by an upstart. That seems bizarre to me - particularly considering that she came of age when that upstart Kennedy won the presidency. Of course she wants to win, that is a given. Most all of them except Gravel and maybe Dennis felt they had a legitimate shot at winning.

[roni]

Originally Posted by Jacko

I think I understand the reasons for her persistence...and they have nothing to do with what you Hillary Kool aid drinkers come up with...she is an elitist in that she truly thinks she is a much better candidate than Obama..and she will go to ugly ends to win the nomination..I have seen her do it time and again...her words in the the PA debate displayed clearly the depths she would lower herself in order to try to win....

I think this discussion will be better if you stay away from the insulting terminology

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by roni

I think most human behavior is complex and motivated by multiple factors. I do not believe most of our decisions can be attributed to just one thing, and many times not even to one main thing.

That is what I think. I do not think, however, that she believes her "turn" was stolen by an upstart. That seems bizarre to me - particularly considering that she came of age when that upstart Kennedy won the presidency. Of course she wants to win, that is a given. Most all of them except Gravel and maybe Dennis felt they had a legitimate shot at winning.

Well, her thinking she had a legitimate shot at winning in JANUARY is one thing.

Thinking she has a legitimate shot NOW is just delusional and utterly destructive to the party!

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by roni

I think this discussion will be better if you stay away from the insulting terminology

Just calling them as I see them...one would have to be drinking the kool aid to believe that Hillary remains in the race primarily to save the party from an Obama defeat in the general.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by roni

I think most human behavior is complex and motivated by multiple factors. I do not believe most of our decisions can be attributed to just one thing, and many times not even to one main thing.

That is what I think. I do not think, however, that she believes her "turn" was stolen by an upstart. That seems bizarre to me - particularly considering that she came of age when that upstart Kennedy won the presidency. Of course she wants to win, that is a given. Most all of them except Gravel and maybe Dennis felt they had a legitimate shot at winning.

I think there is plenty that is bizarre in her thinking (and yours) on this subject...so it being bizarre is not reason enough not to consider it.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by roni

I think most human behavior is complex and motivated by multiple factors. I do not believe most of our decisions can be attributed to just one thing, and many times not even to one main thing.

That is what I think. I do not think, however, that she believes her "turn" was stolen by an upstart. That seems bizarre to me - particularly considering that she came of age when that upstart Kennedy won the presidency. Of course she wants to win, that is a given. Most all of them except Gravel and maybe Dennis felt they had a legitimate shot at winning.

Don't dis my boy!

[roni]

Originally Posted by Jacko

Just calling them as I see them...one would have to be drinking the kool aid to believe that Hillary remains in the race primarily to save the party from an Obama defeat in the general.

Okay then Jacko. That is not surprising from the Obama supporters here, who accuse people of being a part of the lying, doing the equivalent of lying, drinking the kool-aid.

It would be far better for all of us to acknowledge legitimate differences of opinion. To paraphrase you, I expect better from you and I am disappointed in you.

[Jacko]

roni, I do not know what you are inferring with these comments regarding lying and the equivalent of lying???? Are you talking about me somehow?

I am sorry I somehow disappoint you, but I am certainly not clear regarding why that might be. Can you expound a bit?

[Jacko]

Senator Clinton in Pa....

SENATOR CLINTON: Well, I think, in addition to the questions about Reverend Wright and what he said and when he said it, and for whatever reason he might have said these things, there were so many different variations on the explanations that we heard. And it is something that I think deserves further exploration, because clearly what we've got to figure out is how we're going to bring people together in a way that overcomes the anger, overcomes the divisiveness and whatever bitterness there may be out there.

It is clear that, as leaders, we have a choice who we associate with and who we apparently give some kind of seal of approval to. And I think that it wasn't only the specific remarks, but some of the relationships with Reverend Farrakhan, with giving the church bulletin over to the leader of Hamas to put a message in. You know, these are problems, and they raise questions in people's minds.

And so this is a legitimate area, as everything is when we run for office, for people to be exploring and trying to find answers.

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by roni

Okay then Jacko. That is not surprising from the Obama supporters here, who accuse people of being a part of the lying, doing the equivalent of lying, drinking the kool-aid.

It would be far better for all of us to acknowledge legitimate differences of opinion. To paraphrase you, I expect better from you and I am disappointed in you.

FWIW, if the delegate count were reversed and Obama were still fighting, I would be saying the EXACT same things about him that I am currently saying about Hillary...

[Jacko]

Senator Clinton on Bosnia in Pa...did she admit to lying here?

SENATOR CLINTON: Well, Tom, I can tell you that I may be a lot of things, but I'm not dumb. And I wrote about going to Bosnia in my book in 2004. I laid it all out there. And you're right. On a couple of occasions in the last weeks I just said some things that weren't in keeping with what I knew to be the case and what I had written about in my book. And, you know, I'm embarrassed by it. I have apologized for it. I've said it was a mistake. And it is, I hope, something that you can look over, because clearly I am proud that I went to Bosnia. It was a war zone.

..............

But you know, I'm very sorry that I said it. And I have said that, you know, it just didn't jibe with what I had written about and knew to be the truth.

[Jacko]

Here is how Obama responded to that "opening"..

But look, the fact of the matter is, is that both of us are working as hard as we can to make sure that we're delivering a message to the American people about what we would do as president.

Sometimes that message is going to be imperfectly delivered, because we are recorded every minute of every day. And I think Senator Clinton deserves, you know, the right to make some errors once in a while. I'm -- obviously, I make some as well.

I think what's important is to make sure that we don't get so obsessed with gaffes that we lose sight of the fact that this is a defining moment in our history. We are going to be tackling some of the biggest issues that any president has dealt with in the last 40 years. Our economy is teetering not just on the edge of recession, but potentially worse. Our foreign policy is in a shambles. We are involved in two wars. People's incomes have not gone up, and their costs have. And we're seeing greater income inequality now than any time since the 1920s.

In those circumstances, for us to be obsessed with this -- these kinds of errors I think is a mistake. And that's not what our campaign has been about.

[roni]

Originally Posted by roni

Okay then Jacko. That is not surprising from the Obama supporters here, who accuse people of being a part of the lying, doing the equivalent of lying, drinking the kool-aid.

It would be far better for all of us to acknowledge legitimate differences of opinion. To paraphrase you, I expect better from you and I am disappointed in you.

Originally Posted by Jacko

roni, I do not know what you are inferring with these comments regarding lying and the equivalent of lying???? Are you talking about me somehow?

I am sorry I somehow disappoint you, but I am certainly not clear regarding why that might be. Can you expound a bit?

You are not the only Obama supporter here, but you have taken tonight to using insulting language and to not accepting differences as legitimate, but instead as reflecting the drinking of Hillary kool aid and bizarre thinking.

I expect better from you. This is unusual for you. I am sure you will feel better in the morning, which is only about 25 minutes away where you are.

Sleep well.

[Jacko]

Senator Clinton on Ayer and The Weather Underground Bombing....and Obama's response...

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position.

And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every American, because they were published on 9/11 and he said that he was just sorry they hadn't done more. And what they did was set bombs and in some instances people died. So it is -- you know, I think it is, again, an issue that people will be asking about. And I have no doubt -- I know Senator Obama's a good man and I respect him greatly but I think that this is an issue that certainly the Republicans will be raising.

And it goes to this larger set of concerns about, you know, how we are going to run against John McCain. You know, I wish the Republicans would apologize for the disaster of the Bush-Cheney years and not run anybody, just say that it's time for the Democrats to go back into the White House. (Laughter, applause.)

Unfortunately, they don't seem to be willing to do that. So we know that they're going to be out there, full force. And you know, I've been in this arena for a long time. I have a lot of baggage, and everybody has rummaged through it for years. (Laughter.) And so therefore, I have, you know, an opportunity to come to this campaign with a very strong conviction and feeling that I will be able to withstand whatever the Republican sends our way.

SENATOR OBAMA: I'm going to have to respond to this just really quickly, but by Senator Clinton's own vetting standards, I don't think she would make it, since President Clinton pardoned or commuted the sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is a slightly more significant act than me --

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by roni

You are not the only Obama supporter here, but you have taken tonight to using insulting language and to not accepting differences as legitimate, but instead as reflecting the drinking of Hillary kool aid and bizarre thinking.

I expect better from you. This is unusual for you. I am sure you will feel better in the morning, which is only about 25 minutes away where you are.

Sleep well.

This notion of claiming the ideas of one whom I associate with are in fact my ideas as well.....well, we have heard this used before quite often in this primary election...I am a bit sensitive about it...if you are responding to my posts and speaking to me...please do not generalize other "Obama supporters" opinions as if they were mine...it is not clear..and it is not accurate and I certainly expect better from you than this.

(and if "bizarre thinking" is to be considered an insult, did you not first make that insult prior to my post?)