USA Presidential Politics - 2008

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by AndrewII

No I watch CNN and Fox. You need to watch both otherwise you just get a one slant on things. It doesn't matter if the comment was about race or not. Thats how the majority of the country took it. Black people and democrats can't have it both ways. Sorry.

I'm sorry, too, but I find your reasoning here to be bizarre... Probably I'm just not understanding it properly or something...

Steve

[roni]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

Well I may be stupid but at least I'm not dumb.My point was completely sidestepped. I can see where a campaign might collect data on race etc for targeted advertising etc.

My point was that the media and Clinton are focused almost exclusively on the racial division aspect of the data. Why this focus exists is, I think, important.

I do not agree that Clinton is focused almost exclusively on the racial demographics of voters who have voted in Democratic primaries.

[ryberg]

Put it this way, AndrewII (is there, btw, an AndrewI on this forum? ), I think it's an awfully big stretch to try to take a remark many also said was accurate if poorly worded in some respects, about the tendencies of people in some small towns when times are hard and the government doesn't listen to them as it should (it was after all clearly intended to be commentary sympathetic to their situation), and also a comment someone made about his own grandmother, perhaps also poorly worded but also seen as accurate by many people (including Chris Wallace, just for example, and to the extent that he took the almost unprecedented step of scolding his co-workers on the air for their decontextualization and criticism of it), both remarks made by a man who has clearly and repeatedly spoken out against such divisions (his widely praised speech on race in Philadelphia being just one example; his widely praised speech in 2004 on political divisions being another; his two widely praised books being two more), and one who in fact embodies in himself a blend of races and and so forth, and to nevertheless conclude that the two remarks outweigh all the rest and prove that his vision of getting past such divisions has failed...

Well, as I say, I think that's bizarre reasoning, but perhaps I'm not understanding you properly and that's not what you're saying... That view strikes me as being like that of the people who comment that this past winter was not so cold where they live, actually, and conclude from that that therefore the whole of the evidence on global warming must be wrong and the idea disproved.

And this is not even to mention that Obama has said he's no more perfect than anyone else is, for one; and for another, it's not strictly speaking his vision, it is a road open to all of us to choose to make ourselves better and make the country better, if we really want to. It's not his product he's trying to sell (like a snake oil salesman, the implication of such criticism seems to be), it is just objectively speaking a possibility we can pursue.

But to take the above view and then to further imply (as usually seems to be the case) that he's therefore really just like all other politicians, such as his opponent, who has repeatedly and now more directly and overtly than ever tried to focus this campaign on race in a cynical way, to her own benefit...

Doesn't make sense.

Steve

[ryberg]

Sen. Barack Obama on Friday closed in on Sen. Hillary Clinton's lead among superdelegates, the Democratic officials who hold the balance of power in determining the party's presidential nominee.

The Obama campaign announced the support of three new superdelegates -- including a previous Clinton backer.

Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon told The Oregonian newspaper that he will support the presidential bid of the senator from Illinois. Oregon voters are in the middle of primary voting, which takes place through the mail.

Rep. Donald Payne, a New Jersey Democrat and an early Clinton supporter, told The (Newark) Star-Ledger that he was switching to Obama . . .

John Gage, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, also said he is backing Obama. He had been uncommitted. His union, which is affiliated with the AFL-CIO, said it represents more than 600,000 workers... [source]

RCP now shows her lead in superdelegates at just +7. It's natsukashii, as the Japanese would say, to think back to when it was well over 100. She really better not wait too long...

Steve

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by roni

I do not agree that Clinton is focused almost exclusively on the racial demographics of voters who have voted in Democratic primaries.

Perhaps it just seems that way to me because the media is playing it up?

[roni]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

Perhaps it just seems that way to me because the media is playing it up?

Watch less media JL.

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by roni

Watch less media JL.

I agree. I usually watch the News Hour once a week or so. Other than that NPR and newspapers are the most common sources of information to me.

However even my sources play these things up. It does surprise me how the 24 hour news channels essentially create a frenzy sometimes by over reporting particular stories. Oh well, I've never been much of a fan of TV news. It seems to be getting worse all the time.

[ryberg]

Unfortunately it still plays it's story to an awful lot of people, so it's still very much an issue, how things are covered.

And speaking of which, I'll pick up my own board on this a little bit, JL and Melliedee (do you mind if I call you Mel? much easier to type on the iPhone, when I'm on that, and a good friend of mine named Melody always goes by Mel, too, so...), and note as another indication of possibly greater acceptance of sexism in our society the seeming non-coverage so far of the story about McCain having once called his wife a [insert very harsh word referring to female genitalia that I will not use here] and a "trollop" in front of various other important people (other senators? don't recall right now). There was a related story a short time ago where a man who was apparently a minister and said he was concerned about this incident and in fact about the press not looking into it more and so took it upon himself at a town hall-type session McCain was holding to ask about it, when it was his turn. McCain said that kind of language was not accepted there and that he would refuse to comment (even if it was his wording, of course, that the man was referring to!) and then the man was escorted from the scene.

FWIW!

Steve

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Unfortunately it still plays it's story to an awful lot of people, so it's still very much an issue, how things are covered.

And speaking of which, I'll pick up my own board on this a little bit, JL and Melliedee (do you mind if I call you Mel? much easier to type on the iPhone, when I'm on that, and a good friend of mine named Melody always goes by Mel, too, so...), and note as another indication of possibly greater acceptance of sexism in our society the seeming non-coverage so far of the story about McCain having once called his wife a [insert very harsh word referring to female genitalia that I will not use here] and a "trollop" in front of various other important people (other senators? don't recall right now). There was a related story a short time ago where a man who was apparently a minister and said he was concerned about this incident and in fact about the press not looking into it more and so took it upon himself at a town hall-type session McCain was holding to ask about it, when it was his turn. McCain said that kind of language was not accepted there and that he would refuse to comment (even if it was his wording, of course, that the man was referring to!) and then the man was escorted from the scene.

FWIW!

Steve

Mel is good (all my friends end up calling me that).

I've heard that c-word story about McCain before but couldn't tell if it was just a rumor or he'd been caught saying this; it has the feel of Washington urban ledgend. What was documented was his harsh and sexist joke to a teenage Chelsea Clinton which he told at a public forum.

On the whole "style" and personality issue, I wonder if he will get debate questions about being a hot head?

[ryberg]

Maybe some here, too? Hard to tell without more, perhaps. See what you think:

Obama Should Pick Webb for Running Mate

Senator Clinton would not, in fact, bring that much to the ticket. Her strongest appeal obviously is to women. But women are likely to vote predominantly Democratic in any case, as they have for the past quarter of a century. Would women facing a recession and mounting health costs really support John McCain's tax cuts for the wealthy and his ineffective health program? Would the most outspoken feminists really endorse a candidate pledged to appoint the Supreme Court Justices who would reverse Roe v. Wade?

The real "gender gap" is not caused by women, but by men. The Democrats have been losing presidential elections because men have left their ranks in greater numbers than women have come to support the party . . .

So there you have, among other things, the assumption that women will vote Democrat just like the assumption that blacks will vote Democrat...

An Obama-Clinton ticket would be historic in overturning barriers of race and gender. But confronting the electorate with both a black and a woman candidate at the same time might well try its patience beyond the limits of well-meaning tolerance. It is simply realistic, even if not ennobling, to remember that white males constitute forty percent of the electorate, and that they too may want to identify with some candidate. Of course there is such a candidate in the race -- Republican John McCain. Democrats need to counter his appeal . . .

There it's, Oh, hey, make sure and give (white) men a (white) man so they can have someone to identify with! As if tickets in the past have made sure to include a woman (of whatever race) so that women (of whatever race) could have someone to identify with...

And then a point presented interestingly as sort of minor or an afterthought, after many arguments in favor of Webb:

Webb may have some deficiencies as a candidate, related to sexist writings done thirty years ago and his occasional indelicate language. He, and Obama, would need to make special efforts to clear those hurdles to bring women voters back into the Democratic fold. They can succeed by emphasizing the evident differences between them and McCain on both economic and social policies, as well as the Iraq war.

What think you?

Steve

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Mel is good (all my friends end up calling me that).

I've heard that c-word story about McCain before but couldn't tell if it was just a rumor or he'd been caught saying this; it has the feel of Washington urban ledgend. What was documented was his harsh and sexist joke to a teenage Chelsea Clinton which he told at a public forum.

On the whole "style" and personality issue, I wonder if he will get debate questions about being a hot head?

Oh, yes, I'd forgotten about the Chelsea Clinton one! Good one!

Of course, if that hasn't come out much yet, it probably will even less, with Clinton seemingly out of the contest.

I did not have the impression that the story I referred to was a political urban legend, myself...

Steve

[Just Lucky]

Well there is always McCain flying thousands of miles out of his way to seek the endorsements of the likes of rev Hagge & rev Robertson.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

Well there is always McCain flying thousands of miles out of his way to seek the endorsements of the likes of rev Hagge & rev Robertson.

Robertson...

Robertson...

Oh, yeah: that's that conservative preacher who blamed the US for 9/11, right!

Well, I mean, ONE of the conservative preachers who blamed the US for 9/11, anyway.

Hagee being the one who blames Katrina on gays & lesbians and the Holocaust on the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken.

Steve

[melliedee]

Webb is an interesting character. Vietnam vet, former Republican (not that there's anything wrong with that) and a novelist.

Lots of old stuff online about claims against him of sexism, but they are from the 70's (don't know how big a scandal it was? Apparently involved comments to women at the Navel academy and an article titled "Women can't Fight.") Need to investigate; people change. Though, he has been married three times.

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Robertson...

Robertson...

Oh, yeah: that's that conservative preacher who blamed the US for 9/11, right!

Well, I mean, ONE of the conservative preachers who blamed the US for 9/11, anyway.

Hagee being the one who blames Katrina on gays & lesbians and the Holocaust on the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken.

Steve

Tell me Steve, since I lack the questionable benefit of 24 hour news channels, do they play clips of the revs in question saying those things over and over again on said channels the way they do rev Wright?

If not, why not?