What do ya think?

[kwagner99]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

Illegal immigrants pay millions of dollars into Social Security and Medicare. It is money that they will never see again. Social Security and Medicare are the two largest suckers of money in the country. If you take out the money that illegals contribute, these programs are going to go broke, real quick. Try telling your parents that their check won't be coming because you couldn't handle some Mexican working in a job that no one else would do.

I think the solution is to make them all citizens. Then they would no longer be illegal, and would no longer be subject to exploitation for profit by unscrupulous businesses. It would level the playing field for all businesses, decriminalize the act of trying to feed your family (because the system south of the border is so corrupt and broken) and, contrary to extreme right-wing spin, the sky would not fall.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

The system absolutlely does suck. The workers that the US needs are the exact same workers that cannot afford to migrate legally. It is an expensive and time-consuming process, and is not set up to accomodate the immediate needs of American businesses. If you need work in order to feed your family, you sure as hell don't have the time or money necessary to find an immigration lawyer, make multiple trips to a consulate, fill out stacks of paperwork and wait up to a year for an answer.

The vast majority of these people are not taking a job away from an American. the current unemployment rate is 4.5% and, from memory of my economics classes in college, full employment is considered 4%. So, what happens when you kick out all the illegals?

There is a better way, as Tappy mentioned. The US has enough problems with Latin America. It doesn't need to add to those problems by shooting itself in the foot, in the process. Those that feel they are being robbed by illegals using services, ought to take a look at how much they would be paying for goods and service, and taxes, if it weren't for those illegals. Its like kicking yourself in the nuts because your toes itches.

Raiding companies to give the appearance of "doing something" is nothing short of retarded. Separating kids from their parents is just plain spiteful. Shame on whoever is responsible.

There is one area where the Congress and President agree. They should stop playing games long enough to pass immigration reform. Not build a fence, but do something that benefits everyone. Kicking illegals out of the country benefits no one. It may please a few people who have no concept of economics, but the rest of us have to suffer for that?

Sorry Mark I disagree.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by kwagner99

I think the solution is to make them all citizens. Then they would no longer be illegal, and would no longer be subject to exploitation for profit by unscrupulous businesses. It would level the playing field for all businesses, decriminalize the act of trying to feed your family (because the system south of the border is so corrupt and broken) and, contrary to extreme right-wing spin, the sky would not fall.

If you make them all citizens then you encourage another wave of illegals to come here to get the same deal. You also reinforce the idea that as long as you think you have a moral case it's OK to break the law.

It would not level the playing field for business because businesses hiring illegals are looking for the cheapest cost to make a profit. That would be hiring the next wave of illegals coming in.

If you just give amnesty, without fixing the border, then you get the same thing all over again. That's what happened before.

No the sky would not fall, but we will face the same problems until we change the system. That means no illegal border crossing, no overstaying student or tourist visas and prosecuting those who do. A guest worker program makes more sense. Radically increasing the number of immigrants allowed and making it easier to come here makes sense.

The population of illegal immigrants in Texas (~2M) is about half the entire population of Minnesota (~5M). Perhaps moving them all to Minnesota is the answer. Your state has an estimated illegal immigrant population of 80-85K. That's the population of single small town.

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by dartay

Sorry Mark I disagree.

Well, I know you disagree.

What I am trying to do is show you that it is not as cut and dried as some people want to make it. While it is true that they broke the law (I am not disputing that), they offer far more benefits to the US than they are given credit for. They produce, for one thing. Already, they have a leg up on a lot of citizens. They do pay taxes, for the most part, and the majority of them are not draining services, because they don't want to be anywhere near a government official. They are vital to the economy.

I don't agree with kwagner99 that they should all be made citizens, either. That is rewarding illegal behavior, IMHO. Their status should be changed to "guest worker" or something similar, as a compromise. They don't get to jump on the citizen gravy train, right away, but should be given a way to citizenship that allows them to continue to work, in the meantime.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

Well, I know you disagree.

What I am trying to do is show you that it is not as cut and dried as some people want to make it. While it is true that they broke the law (I am not disputing that), they offer far more benefits to the US than they are given credit for. They produce, for one thing. Already, they have a leg up on a lot of citizens. They do pay taxes, for the most part, and the majority of them are not draining services, because they don't want to be anywhere near a government official. They are vital to the economy.

I don't agree with kwagner99 that they should all be made citizens, either. That is rewarding illegal behavior, IMHO. Their status should be changed to "guest worker" or something similar, as a compromise. They don't get to jump on the citizen gravy train, right away, but should be given a way to citizenship that allows them to continue to work, in the meantime.

The Hispanic population has grown in leaps and bounds in South Louisiana since Hurricane Rita and Katrina. Construction workers from Mexico. They are providing a much needed labor force and SKILL for this area. They are also fueling the local economy - just walk in any Walmart or fast food joint on your lunch hour. These are not dead beats who are looking to soak the American people. I like the idea of a guest worker program with Mexico. Why are we wasting our time, energy and money deporting Mexicans ? We should be watching those sneaky Canadians to the North !! (just kidding...I love Canadians to) !!!

[james]

Originally Posted by Head Honcho

Obviously they're all economic migrants and please excuse my ignorance here, but Mexico is one of the richest countries in the world according to it's GDP, so how come they all want to get over the border? ...

this is a common misconception. Mexicans would rather be Mexicans and stay in Mexico, mostly. They (those that go... most don't) go al norte for one reason: the money.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

Well, I know you disagree.

What I am trying to do is show you that it is not as cut and dried as some people want to make it. While it is true that they broke the law (I am not disputing that), they offer far more benefits to the US than they are given credit for. They produce, for one thing. Already, they have a leg up on a lot of citizens. They do pay taxes, for the most part, and the majority of them are not draining services, because they don't want to be anywhere near a government official. They are vital to the economy.

I understand that there is some benefit. But I don't believe it's as great as you're claiming, at least not here and from the ones I know personally. The vast majority of those work on a cash basis, the only tax they pay is when they purchase something. No Social Security, no Medicare, nothing. 14000 babies born to illegal immigrants at a single hospital last year isn't sponging? This is the same town where the illegal I know don't pay taxes. It doesn't play out the way you say. There's a whole lot of grey.

I agree that they are hard workers - no question about that. You're entirely correct about that being better than a lot of Americans. That's what I simply don't get about the attitude of the politicos in Mexico. They are letting their best natural resouce - their hard workers - slip away. Those are the people we want to be here legally, contributors paying taxes.

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

I don't agree with kwagner99 that they should all be made citizens, either. That is rewarding illegal behavior, IMHO. Their status should be changed to "guest worker" or something similar, as a compromise. They don't get to jump on the citizen gravy train, right away, but should be given a way to citizenship that allows them to continue to work, in the meantime.

We do agree on this part, mostly. The guest worker thing makes sense. A path to eventual citizenship (for all of them) makes sense. My issue is not racial, it's the illegality and the problems created by this.

But we do have to fix the border issue. Fixing the status doesn't eliminate the problem - they go hand in hand.

As an aside. What part of the US are you from?

[PlayaGroom]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

The Hispanic population has grown in leaps and bounds in South Louisiana since Hurricane Rita and Katrina. Construction workers from Mexico. They are providing a much needed labor force and SKILL for this area. They are also fueling the local economey - just walk in any Walmart or fast food joint on your lunch hour. These are not dead beats who are looking to soak the American people. I like the idea of a guest worker program with Mexico. Why are we wasting our time, energy and money deporting Mexicans ? We should be watching those sneaky Canadians to the North !! (just kidding...I love Canadians to) !!!

How dare you say they fuel the local econom(e)y by eating lunch at Walmart!!

Sorry, someone had to say it on this thread too.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by PlayaGroom

How dare you say they fuel the local econom(e)y by eating lunch at Walmart!!

Sorry, someone had to say it on this thread too.

What is wrong with getting food from Walmart ???

Our Walmart has a Subway, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and Starbucks in it !!!

Now you are going to bring out the Walmart bashers !!!

[PlayaGroom]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

Now you are going to bring out the Walmart bashers !!!

You started it

[dartay]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

The Hispanic population has grown in leaps and bounds in South Louisiana since Hurricane Rita and Katrina. Construction workers from Mexico. They are providing a much needed labor force and SKILL for this area. They are also fueling the local economey - just walk in any Walmart or fast food joint on your lunch hour. These are not dead beats who are looking to soak the American people. I like the idea of a guest worker program with Mexico. Why are we wasting our time, energy and money deporting Mexicans ? We should be watching those sneaky Canadians to the North !! (just kidding...I love Canadians to) !!!

You had a labor force. But our government doles out far too much in the way of assistance that makes them lazy.

No one thinks that Mexican illegals are not hard workers. (BTW the illegal immigrant problem is not just related to Hispanics, they just happen to be the main population in the south.)

One main issue is that, if they are like the ones here, the only tax they pay is in the form of retail sales. Nothing else. It may be different there but somehow I doubt it. Especially since the construction jobs are going to be relatively short lived.

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by dartay

As an aside. What part of the US are you from?

I was a Navy brat, so if its a state on the coast, I probably lived there. Before I came to Mexico, I was living in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by dartay

You had a labor force. But our government doles out far too much in the way of assistance that makes them lazy.

No one thinks that Mexican illegals are not hard workers. (BTW the illegal immigrant problem is not just related to Hispanics, they just happen to be the main population in the south.)

One main issue is that, if they are like the ones here, the only tax they pay is in the form of retail sales. Nothing else. It may be different there but somehow I doubt it. Especially since the construction jobs are going to be relatively short lived.

Not this type of labor force - we are talking skilled/semi skilled construction workers.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

Not this type of labor force - we are talking skilled/semi skilled construction workers.

Guarenteed they weren't trained in Mexico for the most part. Either OTJ somewhere else here or OTJ there.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

I was a Navy brat, so if its a state on the coast, I probably lived there. Before I came to Mexico, I was living in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

My son's on the Abraham Lincoln. Dad was navy - not for me. I've got an authority figure problem.