What do ya think?

[kwagner99]

Originally Posted by dartay

If you make them all citizens then you encourage another wave of illegals to come here to get the same deal. You also reinforce the idea that as long as you think you have a moral case it's OK to break the law.

Our government currently rewards all kinds of law breaking. Do I have to mention Halliburton, which is only the tip of the iceberg? Our artifically low immigration quotas are in place for one reason only: The Republican Party fears a wave of new, potentially Democratic voters. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by dartay

It would not level the playing field for business because businesses hiring illegals are looking for the cheapest cost to make a profit. That would be hiring the next wave of illegals coming in.

Eventually things would reach a state of equillibrium, at which point the jobs south of the border will need to become financially competitive with jobs north of the border. As James said, the people that become illegal immigrants to the US would rather stay n their home country, but in order to feed their families they feel they have no choice but to break the law.

Originally Posted by dartay

If you just give amnesty, without fixing the border, then you get the same thing all over again. That's what happened before.

Again, equillibrium will eventally be reached. There are only a finite number of people in the world. History has proved that economic prosperity is inversely proportional with birthrates.

Originally Posted by dartay

No the sky would not fall, but we will face the same problems until we change the system. That means no illegal border crossing, no overstaying student or tourist visas and prosecuting those who do. A guest worker program makes more sense. Radically increasing the number of immigrants allowed and making it easier to come here makes sense.

A guest worker program is nothing more than legalized slavery, which last I check was abolished a few years back. The way the guest worker lobby has the current proposal written, whether or not a guest worker stays in the US is 100% up to the employer. The potential for abuse is obvious.

Originally Posted by dartay

The population of illegal immigrants in Texas (~2M) is about half the entire population of Minnesota (~5M). Perhaps moving them all to Minnesota is the answer. Your state has an estimated illegal immigrant population of 80-85K. That's the population of single small town.

That is an amazing statistic, considering years of right-wing abuse we have taken for our allegedly generous welfare benefits here in Minnesota. I would think every illegal in the country would be living here by now. The truth is, they come here to work, they pay taxes and will never (under the current situation) receive any benefits from said taxes, and they only want what our ancestors wanted when they came from all over the world in the 1800's: A better life. If I were in their shoes, I would do the same thing. If it was a choice between my children starving and jumping the border, no question about it, I would be an illegal. Isn't that the kind of people we want here, people who are motivated, industrious, clever and willing to work hard?

[dartay]

Originally Posted by kwagner99

Our government currently rewards all kinds of law breaking. Do I have to mention Halliburton, which is only the tip of the iceberg? Our artifically low immigration quotas are in place for one reason only: The Republican Party fears a wave of new, potentially Democratic voters. Plain and simple.

Typical liberal answer and completely false. Republicans bad - Democrats good. Utter nonsense.

Originally Posted by kwagner99

Eventually things would reach a state of equillibrium, at which point the jobs south of the border will need to become financially competitive with jobs north of the border. As James said, the people that become illegal immigrants to the US would rather stay n their home country, but in order to feed their families they feel they have no choice but to break the law.

As long as companies try and maximize profits no equillibrium will ever be achieved. Again wishful thinking - and completely false.

BTW no one blames people for trying to feed their families.

Originally Posted by kwagner99

Again, equillibrium will eventally be reached. There are only a finite number of people in the world. History has proved that economic prosperity is inversely proportional with birthrates.

Once more on the equillibirium nonsense. It will never happen. I suggest you go back and re-read American history and the demand for cheap labor.

Originally Posted by kwagner99

A guest worker program is nothing more than legalized slavery, which last I check was abolished a few years back. The way the guest worker lobby has the current proposal written, whether or not a guest worker stays in the US is 100% up to the employer. The potential for abuse is obvious.

Liberal drivel. The abuse happening today is people illegally crossing the border and not paying taxes and sponging off our tax dollars.

The big bad companies will take advantage. Let's make sure we have bigger government. Sure there will be some idiots who try and cash in on guest workers but the vast majority will not.

Originally Posted by kwagner99

That is an amazing statistic, considering years of right-wing abuse we have taken for our allegedly generous welfare benefits here in Minnesota. I would think every illegal in the country would be living here by now. The truth is, they come here to work, they pay taxes and will never (under the current situation) receive any benefits from said taxes, and they only want what our ancestors wanted when they came from all over the world in the 1800's: A better life. If I were in their shoes, I would do the same thing. If it was a choice between my children starving and jumping the border, no question about it, I would be an illegal. Isn't that the kind of people we want here, people who are motivated, industrious, clever and willing to work hard?

The real truth is, though you head is stuck so far in the sand you it's cutting off your thought process, that they don't pay near the taxes that they should and they are raiding our economy.

[Rissask]

Little tip for you, dartay, when you keep spouting things like 'liberal drivel,' it really detracts from your argument and just makes you look closed minded and nasty.

A guest worker program is nothing more than legalized slavery, which last I check was abolished a few years back. The way the guest worker lobby has the current proposal written, whether or not a guest worker stays in the US is 100% up to the employer. The potential for abuse is obvious.

The bloom is off the rose honey.

This is not at all true.
Canada has had a guest worker program for Mexican citizens in place for years now, they come up seasonally to harvest crops down in Ontario, then go back to their homes and families....they are treated very well and the same people come back year after year. It's hardly 'slavery', it's cooperation and mutually advantageous economics.

[dartay]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Little tip for you, dartay, when you keep spouting things like 'liberal drivel,' it really detracts from your argument and just makes you look closed minded and nasty.

Consider me rebuked then.

[kwagner99]

Here are the inconvenient truths that the anti-immigrant crowd needs to come to grips with:
1. The illegals are here, and they will continue to come, no matter what boondoggle project Republicans push, be it a fence, or more govenment crackdowns, or more border patrol agents. Remember the War On Drugs? All that did was fill the prisons with first-time offenders, raise the price paid on the street, and increase the amount of violence associated with the drug trade. Drug use is at an all-time high (no pun intended!) and continues to rise! However, it is highly profitable for the law enforcement and prison industries, which was precisely the point behind the war on drugs. So drain the treasury by building ineffectual fences and staffing the border with more law enforcement. It won't do a whit of good, other than to burnish some politician's street cred with the Deliverance Wing of the Republican Party, while going against every conservative principle Republicans claim to believe in. (What's a little hypocrisy when there is money to be made, eh?)
2. Regarding equillibrium: You can't defy the laws of physics. Balance will eventually come, whether it fits your ideology or not. I will stand firmly behind the sciences on this one, economic, physical, and sociological. So we can either choose to fight a losing battle against the trends, or we can find a way to take positive advantage of the situation.
3. More citizens means more people paying into the Social Security system. The new money flowing into the system will ensure the solvency of the program forever. (Yes, there are studies by respect economist that show this. I can dig one up if you'd like.) Republicans hate this idea, because it takes away any and all arguements they have for privitizing the system (another boondoggle!). Why do Republicans hate working people?
4. The vast majority of illegals in the country are here to work. They don't "sponge off the system". Yes, their children are filling up the schools, and county hospitals are having budget issues. This can be solved many different ways if we choose to do so. Of course, if we do so, Republicans loose another argument against more immigration, and Democrats gain lots of new voters (unless you can embrace them, rather than criminalize them).
5. I often hear the specious argument that illegals do jobs that American's won't do. If that is the case, why do you want to send them back? We need people to do those jobs. The truth is, they do jobs that Americans won't do for below-poverty wages!
6. If you really want to keep illegals out of the country, there is a really simple answer: Make it a crime, punishable by prison time, to hire an illegal alien, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Take away all incentive to skirt the rules and the jobs go away. No jobs for illegals means no illegals coming here for jobs. Back it up by throwing business owners, managers, and officers in prison for a very long time, with no consideration for "first-time offense", no time off for good behavior, and no buying their way out of it with a fine. This should cause business people to be very diligent when verifying documentation, so that the only people who get jobs are the ones that are legally entitled to them. (BTW, there are already systems in place to verify documentation, business are just not required to use them, and they are allowed to use the "I didn't know the documents were forged" excuse on purpose.) Of course, this will have the effect of raising the wages neccessary to attract Americans to these jobs, but hey, I'm all for that anyway. That way the government won't need to raise the minimum wage, as the great invisible hand of the market will do it. (How's that for an example of the power of truly free markets, something Republicans say they believe in, but rarely actually practice?)
7. There is no way to round up, process and remove all illegals from this country. It is physically and financially ipossible. Impossible. Impossible (I can't stress that enough)!
8. Labeling me a liberal does not make the problem go away. Understanding why we are in this situation, and the motivation behind it, is the key to finding a workable solution, even if it doesn't fit with your cherished ideology. Sorry, dude.

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by taotoon

Most kids just graduating high school could not pass the tests required for US citizenship, how can you expect someone raised with a different history to pass it? Sometimes the "legal" avenues to being a US citizen are prohibitive to those who do migrant work. While the "rich" immigrant can pass it; the poor often are not provided the education to do so. Think about that before making such flip comments please.

(sore subject for me)

I agree that we should try to stream line the immigration process. I've heard that it can take people up to 20 years to get in here legally. Also if the feds can track peole by computer and so forth, if they are so worried about criminals getting in, then they should develop a system to track such people. Maybe they should just finger print everyone who crosses the border.

[kwagner99]

Originally Posted by Rissask

This is not at all true.
Canada has had a guest worker program for Mexican citizens in place for years now, they come up seasonally to harvest crops down in Ontario, then go back to their homes and families....they are treated very well and the same people come back year after year. It's hardly 'slavery', it's cooperation and mutually advantageous economics.

That is why I specifically stated "as currently written". The version proposed in the US Congress has no protection written into it for the worker, unlike the Canadian program. Very big difference. No doubt the Cons here in the USA would view the Canadian program as a "socialized guest worker program".

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

The rules do suck !!!! And I am refering to Mexicans who want to come here and work to make a living.

"They got what they deserved" - wow...I hope those words dont come back to haunt you one day and you have to make choices that you would rather not make.

I am quite sure they would all come here legally IF they could and we made it easier for them.

Anyway - this is just my opinion.

It was their choice to come here, no one forced them. Then as stated on another thread that once they get here they try to change things to fit their life style that they left to come here to get away from.

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

It sucks !! for everyone involved !!!

So what could they do to change the system?

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by Luv2Dance

Where would you suggest the children go when they are taken from their parents? Be wards of the state thus costing us more money. If they are children of "working parents" in the United States that is still better then the poor children sitting at home with their reject welfare parents smoking crack on our dime.

Ah most of these so called working parents are collecting welfare at the same time they are supposedly working.

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by Luv2Dance

So where do the parents go when they are busted for living here and working illegaly? Maybe I missed an earlier post.

They should not be working here illegally. What would happen to you if you were caught working illegally in Playa?

[kwagner99]

Originally Posted by STOGEY

Ah most of these so called working parents are collecting welfare at the same time they are supposedly working.

I'd like to see a link to a study for that claim...

[kwagner99]

Originally Posted by STOGEY

It was their choice to come here, no one forced them. Then as stated on another thread that once they get here they try to change things to fit their life style that they left to come here to get away from.

Just like the German, Irish and Italians before them, eh?

[TAPPY]

I was laughing at all the Conservative/Liberal labels being thrown around in this thread so I am glad you said something Riss.

And I agree with what Stogey posted - just set up a tracking system who comes in and who goes out/where they work (use the new fingerprint scan that is gaining popularity in banks). You cant forge a fingerprint and all of the info would be right there on the screen
If you are on the bad list then you dont get in or vice versa.

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

The system absolutlely does suck. The workers that the US needs are the exact same workers that cannot afford to migrate legally. It is an expensive and time-consuming process, and is not set up to accomodate the immediate needs of American businesses. If you need work in order to feed your family, you sure as hell don't have the time or money necessary to find an immigration lawyer, make multiple trips to a consulate, fill out stacks of paperwork and wait up to a year for an answer.

The vast majority of these people are not taking a job away from an American. the current unemployment rate is 4.5% and, from memory of my economics classes in college, full employment is considered 4%. So, what happens when you kick out all the illegals?

There is a better way, as Tappy mentioned. The US has enough problems with Latin America. It doesn't need to add to those problems by shooting itself in the foot, in the process. Those that feel they are being robbed by illegals using services, ought to take a look at how much they would be paying for goods, services and taxes if it weren't for those illegals. Its like kicking yourself in the nuts because your toe itches.

Raiding companies to give the appearance of "doing something" is nothing short of retarded. Separating kids from their parents is just plain spiteful. Shame on whoever is responsible.

There is one area where the Congress and President agree. They should stop playing games long enough to pass immigration reform. Not build a fence, but do something that benefits everyone. Kicking illegals out of the country benefits no one. It may please a few people who have no concept of economics, but the rest of us have to suffer for that?

I have the solution then. Everyone should just move to Playa and the surrounding area. We all vacate the US. make it the enviro friendly paradise that Al Gore and his compatriates want to.