Good doll/Bad doll

**Heather** · 03-23-2007

This video documentary was made as a HS class project by a NY teenager (Kiri Davis) who wanted to revisit the famous 1940s test by psychologist Dr. Kenneth Clark that was designed to study the effects of segregation on black children. What do you think about it?

mlsbkp · 03-23-2007

I think it is sad that in this day and time that there are still so many issues regarding segregation. People are people, not colors.

Seakony · 03-23-2007

Wow... very disturbing. I wonder if these kids are exposed to too much gangsta rap and gang movies? It would have been interesting to have them answer "why" they chose a particular doll. I would also be interesting to see the same test conducted on all the other races too.

PlayaGroom · 03-23-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heather

This video documentary was made as a HS class project by a NY teenager (Kiri Davis) who wanted to revisit the famous 1940s test by psychologist Dr. Kenneth Clark that was designed to study the effects of segregation on black children. What do you think about it?

It is interesting to see the lack of change in responses over so many years. It's also so amazing to see how ingrained the black/white train of thought and stereotypes are in everyone's minds today.

This study reminds me of a similar documentary done to a cohort of children starting in the '60's, I believe, titled The Up Series. They interviewed and filmed the behaviors of children in school and on the playground at age 7, then every 7 years the filmmakers followed up with them and conducted similar interviews. It was amazing to see how their personalities and attitudes were projected all the way to their adult lives.

It makes you wonder what this doll documentary will be like in another 50 years. Would they include an asian doll or a middle eastern doll and ask the same questions to our children's children? What would their responses be like?

Luv2Dance · 03-23-2007

Thank you for posting this, Heather. I was shocked to see after all of the years between these two studies, the children's decisions were exactly the same. I was very disturbed when the little girl chose the black doll, saying it looked like her after she just said the white doll was good and the black doll was bad. After desegregation, I thought there would be a slight difference in the latest study. Guess I have had my blinders on.

Seakony · 03-23-2007

This also reminds me of one of my favorite tear-jerking movies "an Imitation of Life" The little black girl also chose the white doll. She was very light skinned and tried to pass for white all her life.

Luv2Dance · 03-23-2007

It would also be interesting to see which doll choice would be made by a child who is both black and white.

**Heather** · 03-23-2007

I saw a similar study with first graders, where black children were shown identical cartoon drawings of a little girl, one colored with dark skin and hair and the other with light skin and blond hair, but with identical features. When asked "Which one of these girls is the prettiest?" time after time, the light skinned blond girl picture was chosen.

I do think this project, while intriguing, is a little shallow. I'd like to know more about the socio-economic background of the children myself and also their racial makeup (do any of the children come from mixed race homes?), etc. In any case, it's certainly worth exploring this and think we still have a loooooong way to go in the US, where we got it right in theory when we said that all men are created equal.

Luv2Dance · 03-23-2007

Didn't it say on the video that the latest study had children who participated were from varying economic backgrounds? Not sure. Need to go back and look at it again.

Seakony · 03-23-2007

yep..it did..all kinds of social-economical.

emc · 03-23-2007

Interesting. I would also like to see how white or asian children would react.
At a friends house a few years ago, I was "playing" dolls with her young daughter who happens to be white. There were probably 4 dolls, one of which was black. I asked her which was her favorite doll. She said "the one with the black hair". I thought it was very interesting that she picked the black doll but never mentioned it being different from the others except for the hair color.

StewartG · 03-23-2007

First, let me take a quick sec to give props to one of my favorite "real life" lawyer role models - Thurgood Marshall. As you know, it was he that argued and won Brown v. The Board of Education of Topeka based, in part, on the original doll story. (Many people do not realize that he argued and won numerous cases in front of the Supreme Court, his first when he was around 30.)

I find the video very fascinating and very moving. One the one hand, we can view the informal "study" the filmmaker did as showing that little has changed in 50 years. On the other hand, we should also think about other factors that might have influenced the outcome... For example, when rich happy people are portrayed on T.V., what color do they tend to be? What is the racial makeup of the neighborhoods in which these kids live? I would also be interested to know more about the kids' parents and how they feel about themselves and their race...

Fascinating movie, fascinating subject. IMHO, we've come quite far in this country in terms of racial issues, but we still have so, so far to go! This topic is DEFINITELY an eight beer conversation!

P.S. My favorite fictional role model for an attorney is Atticus Finch of "To Kill A Mockingbird." Kelli and I had already decided that if Adrienne had been a he instead of a she, he would have been named Atticus.

Cosmo · 03-23-2007

I chose the blow up doll

Tommygurl · 03-23-2007

Just showed Emily the video.....She wanted the brown doll. When asked which one she thought was bad she said "None of them are bad"...she was confused with the question.

Ginger · 03-24-2007

Okay, get ready to flame me because I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. Should we really put too much credit to this video, do we really believe that the main idea she is trying to portray is actually represented honestly and fairly? She is not a child psychologist, or a research specialist, and so she can't know how to properly handle an experiment such as this, like how to ask the right questions, etc.

For example, she asks the children, "which one is the bad doll." Really she should ask IF one of the dolls is bad. She is inferring to the children that one of those dolls IS DEFINATELY bad, and then making them make the choice. I agree though, it is still a sad thing that a lot of those children choose the black doll as being bad.

03-23-2007	#1 (permalink)
Heather Staff Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Playa del Carmen Posts: 9,042	Good doll/Bad doll This video documentary was made as a HS class project by a NY teenager (Kiri Davis) who wanted to revisit the famous 1940s test by psychologist Dr. Kenneth Clark that was designed to study the effects of segregation on black children. What do you think about it?

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03-23-2007	#2 (permalink)
mlsbkp life=playa Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ferrum, Virginia Posts: 969	I think it is sad that in this day and time that there are still so many issues regarding segregation. People are people, not colors.

03-23-2007	#3 (permalink)
Seakony añejo Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: no longer in Mesquite with nothing to do Posts: 10,147	Wow... very disturbing. I wonder if these kids are exposed to too much gangsta rap and gang movies? It would have been interesting to have them answer "why" they chose a particular doll. I would also be interesting to see the same test conducted on all the other races too.

03-23-2007	#5 (permalink)
Luv2Dance añejo Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12,405	Thank you for posting this, Heather. I was shocked to see after all of the years between these two studies, the children's decisions were exactly the same. I was very disturbed when the little girl chose the black doll, saying it looked like her after she just said the white doll was good and the black doll was bad. After desegregation, I thought there would be a slight difference in the latest study. Guess I have had my blinders on.

03-23-2007	#6 (permalink)
Seakony añejo Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: no longer in Mesquite with nothing to do Posts: 10,147	This also reminds me of one of my favorite tear-jerking movies "an Imitation of Life" The little black girl also chose the white doll. She was very light skinned and tried to pass for white all her life.

03-23-2007	#7 (permalink)
Luv2Dance añejo Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12,405	It would also be interesting to see which doll choice would be made by a child who is both black and white.

03-23-2007	#8 (permalink)
Heather Staff Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Playa del Carmen Posts: 9,042	I saw a similar study with first graders, where black children were shown identical cartoon drawings of a little girl, one colored with dark skin and hair and the other with light skin and blond hair, but with identical features. When asked "Which one of these girls is the prettiest?" time after time, the light skinned blond girl picture was chosen. I do think this project, while intriguing, is a little shallow. I'd like to know more about the socio-economic background of the children myself and also their racial makeup (do any of the children come from mixed race homes?), etc. In any case, it's certainly worth exploring this and think we still have a loooooong way to go in the US, where we got it right in theory when we said that all men are created equal.

03-23-2007	#9 (permalink)
Luv2Dance añejo Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12,405	Didn't it say on the video that the latest study had children who participated were from varying economic backgrounds? Not sure. Need to go back and look at it again.

03-23-2007	#10 (permalink)
Seakony añejo Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: no longer in Mesquite with nothing to do Posts: 10,147	yep..it did..all kinds of social-economical.

03-23-2007	#11 (permalink)
emc life=playa Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cleveland OH Posts: 911	Interesting. I would also like to see how white or asian children would react. At a friends house a few years ago, I was "playing" dolls with her young daughter who happens to be white. There were probably 4 dolls, one of which was black. I asked her which was her favorite doll. She said "the one with the black hair". I thought it was very interesting that she picked the black doll but never mentioned it being different from the others except for the hair color.

03-23-2007	#12 (permalink)
StewartG commie pinko Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Kremlin (when not at my dacha in Houston) Posts: 12,940	First, let me take a quick sec to give props to one of my favorite "real life" lawyer role models - Thurgood Marshall. As you know, it was he that argued and won Brown v. The Board of Education of Topeka based, in part, on the original doll story. (Many people do not realize that he argued and won numerous cases in front of the Supreme Court, his first when he was around 30.) I find the video very fascinating and very moving. One the one hand, we can view the informal "study" the filmmaker did as showing that little has changed in 50 years. On the other hand, we should also think about other factors that might have influenced the outcome... For example, when rich happy people are portrayed on T.V., what color do they tend to be? What is the racial makeup of the neighborhoods in which these kids live? I would also be interested to know more about the kids' parents and how they feel about themselves and their race... Fascinating movie, fascinating subject. IMHO, we've come quite far in this country in terms of racial issues, but we still have so, so far to go! This topic is DEFINITELY an eight beer conversation! P.S. My favorite fictional role model for an attorney is Atticus Finch of "To Kill A Mockingbird." Kelli and I had already decided that if Adrienne had been a he instead of a she, he would have been named Atticus.

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03-23-2007	#13 (permalink)
Cosmo añejo Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 9,471	I chose the blow up doll

03-23-2007	#14 (permalink)
Tommygurl crab killer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: I am Canadian!! Posts: 14,195	Just showed Emily the video.....She wanted the brown doll. When asked which one she thought was bad she said "None of them are bad"...she was confused with the question.

03-24-2007	#15 (permalink)
Ginger none Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,162	Okay, get ready to flame me because I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. Should we really put too much credit to this video, do we really believe that the main idea she is trying to portray is actually represented honestly and fairly? She is not a child psychologist, or a research specialist, and so she can't know how to properly handle an experiment such as this, like how to ask the right questions, etc. For example, she asks the children, "which one is the bad doll." Really she should ask IF one of the dolls is bad. She is inferring to the children that one of those dolls IS DEFINATELY bad, and then making them make the choice. I agree though, it is still a sad thing that a lot of those children choose the black doll as being bad.