Hemingway's House in Cuba: Is the embargo still a viable policy? (political)

[Rissask]

BTW, I thought the Cuban people were happy with their lot in life and their leader for life?

I think that just depends who you are talking to. If you talk to many Americans, they read things like this:

The sanctions against Cuba are in place to help restrict hard currency from flowing to the Castro regime, which lines its pockets with money while forcing the Cuban people to live in fear and oppression."

and they naturally have that image of Cuba and Cubans.

You talk to the Cuban goverment and they paint a rosy picture of great education and healthcare, a thriving tourism business, etc.

I bet if you polled actual Cubans you would find the truth/reality lies somewhere in between.

I know people who have travelled in Cuba and found the people to be very positive and content, and of course there are some who hate the communist government and want things to change..
There is certainly far more oppressive and poor countries to live in, in the Caribbean and the world...and some of them are even democracies.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

There are a few countries the US doesn't do business with. North Korea and Syria, to name two. Cuba isn't suffering from the embargo. Cuba is suffering because of its governance. The US doesn't want to prop up a dictator who jails dissidents by the boatload, won't allow free elections and happened to allow nuclear weapons to be stationed on his soil, pointed at the US, and stole property from US citizens. When Fidel is gone, I bet the trade embargo is lifted. Until then, it is well within the rights of the US to choose not to do business with Cuba. This has been the official policy through Democrat and Republican administrations.
BTW, I thought the Cuban people were happy with their lot in life and their leader for life?

Yes, but you have to admit we cherry pick these countries based on politics, or in the case of Cuba is seems, petty saving face? What about Venezuela? From an interesting CATO institute article:

"In fact, the Venezuelan government of Hugo Chavez is doing more to undermine America’s national interest today than either Cuba or China. Chavez shares Castro’s hatred for democratic capitalism, but unlike Castro he has the resources and money to spread his influence in the hemisphere. Chavez is not only bankrolling Cuba with discounted oil but he is also supporting anti-Americans movements in Nicaragua and other countries in our neighborhood. Yet we buy billions of dollars of oil a year from Venezuela’s state oil company, we allow huge Venezuelan investments in our own energy sector, and Americans--last time I checked--can travel freely to Venezuela."

I disagree that the embargo does not cause Cubans to suffer.

Four Decades of Failure: The U.S. Embargo against Cuba | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Yes, but you have to admit we cherry pick these countries based on politics, or in the case of Cuba is seems, petty saving face? What about Venezuela? From an interesting CATO institute article:

"In fact, the Venezuelan government of Hugo Chavez is doing more to undermine America’s national interest today than either Cuba or China. Chavez shares Castro’s hatred for democratic capitalism, but unlike Castro he has the resources and money to spread his influence in the hemisphere. Chavez is not only bankrolling Cuba with discounted oil but he is also supporting anti-Americans movements in Nicaragua and other countries in our neighborhood. Yet we buy billions of dollars of oil a year from Venezuela’s state oil company, we allow huge Venezuelan investments in our own energy sector, and Americans--last time I checked--can travel freely to Venezuela."

I disagree that the embargo does not cause Cubans to suffer.

Four Decades of Failure: The U.S. Embargo against Cuba | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

Well, as I said earlier, I am on the fence about the embargo. If it ended tomorrow, I wouldn't complain. If it stays, I won't complain either. It does work, though, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Cuba feels it. Now, is it right that the Cuban people suffer the main brunt? No. However, if we start business again with Cuba, do you think the people will see any benefits? I doubt it. There is plenty of tourist business out of Canada and Europe, but the average wage of a Cuban worker is still nothing. Fidel likes to keep his people poor and deal out common services like they were Christmas presents.

Personally, I gave up smoking Cuban cigars about 6 years ago, when I heard my next door neighbor's story. I was living in Cancun and what I heard made me sick. I have a personal embargo, in place. My new sister in law is Cuban. Her stories aren't much better. Its not the embargo that is keeping the Cuban people down, that I do know.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

Well, as I said earlier, I am on the fence about the embargo. If it ended tomorrow, I wouldn't complain. If it stays, I won't complain either. It does work, though, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Cuba feels it. Now, is it right that the Cuban people suffer the main brunt? No. However, if we start business again with Cuba, do you think the people will see any benefits? I doubt it. There is plenty of tourist business out of Canada and Europe, but the average wage of a Cuban worker is still nothing. Fidel likes to keep his people poor and deal out common services like they were Christmas presents.

Personally, I gave up smoking Cuban cigars about 6 years ago, when I heard my next door neighbor's story. I was living in Cancun and what I heard made me sick. I have a personal embargo, in place. My new sister in law is Cuban. Her stories aren't much better. Its not the embargo that is keeping the Cuban people down, that I do know.

Many experts say the answer to this is a resounding yes. It's touchy, but I think one can be against the regime of Castro and still oppose the embargo? On the other side, there are many dollars and opportunities lost on the US side as well. MWC could go on his snorkeling tour and I could make a pilgrimage to Hemingway's house.

The benefits to the Cuban people are many...

"Yes, more American dollars would end up in the coffers of the Cuban government, but dollars would also go to private Cuban citizens. Philip Peters, a former State Department official in the Reagan administration and expert on Cuba, argues that American tourists would boost the earnings of Cubans who rent rooms, drive taxis, sell art, and operate restaurants in their homes. Those dollars would then find their way to the hundreds of freely priced farmer’s markets, to carpenters, repairmen, tutors, food venders, and other entrepreneurs."
-Daniel Griswold

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Many experts say the answer to this is a resounding yes. It's touchy, but I think one can be against the regime of Castro and still oppose the embargo? On the other side, there are many dollars and opportunities lost on the US side as well. The benefits to the Cuban people are many...

"Yes, more American dollars would end up in the coffers of the Cuban government, but dollars would also go to private Cuban citizens. Philip Peters, a former State Department official in the Reagan administration and expert on Cuba, argues that American tourists would boost the earnings of Cubans who rent rooms, drive taxis, sell art, and operate restaurants in their homes. Those dollars would then find their way to the hundreds of freely priced farmer’s markets, to carpenters, repairmen, tutors, food venders, and other entrepreneurs."
-Daniel Griswold

But, as I pointed out, there is plenty of Canadian and European money (as well as South American) being put into the country now. It hasn't changed the average wage of Cuban citizens. Why would the color of the money make any difference, is my question.

In any event, Fidel will be dead soon. I think the embargo will be lifted, even if Raul is new President for Life. At this point, it is more symbolic than anything. Lots of people in the US and other places had their lives and property stolen. They need to know that the US does not approve.

PS. I would embargo Venezuela, ASAP. Chavez would not last more than a couple of months, IMHO.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

But, as I pointed out, there is plenty of Canadian and European money (as well as South American) being put into the country now. It hasn't changed the average wage of Cuban citizens. Why would the color of the money make any difference, is my question.

In any event, Fidel will be dead soon. I think the embargo will be lifted, even if Raul is new President for Life. At this point, it is more symbolic than anything. Lots of people in the US and other places had their lives and property stolen. They need to know that the US does not approve.

PS. I would embargo Venezuela, ASAP. Chavez would not last more than a couple of months, IMHO.

We are not just talking a few tourism dollars here. It is economically viable for niether Cuban nor US citizens, imo.

"According to a study by the U.S. International Trade Commission, the embargo costs American firms a total of $700 million to $1.2 billion per year."

How can the same failed policy do any better in Venezuela? It seems clear that a major consequence of punishing a totalitarian leader through embargo is to increase the suffering of people who may not even support that leader.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

But, as I pointed out, there is plenty of Canadian and European money (as well as South American) being put into the country now. It hasn't changed the average wage of Cuban citizens. Why would the color of the money make any difference, is my question.

In any event, Fidel will be dead soon. I think the embargo will be lifted, even if Raul is new President for Life. At this point, it is more symbolic than anything. Lots of people in the US and other places had their lives and property stolen. They need to know that the US does not approve.

PS. I would embargo Venezuela, ASAP. Chavez would not last more than a couple of months, IMHO.

Tell that to the indians...

[sctx]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Those dollars would then find their way to the hundreds of freely priced farmer’s markets, to carpenters, repairmen, tutors, food venders, and other entrepreneurs."
-Daniel Griswold

this would be the black market economy, no??? i believe Thor psoted on eating at a restaraunt where the "owners" seemed very nervous about the government finding out about their establishment....I think it was Thor, might have been one of the Canucks on the board

[sctx]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Tell that to the indians...

hay !!!!...we swindled them fair and square...mostly

[JEZ]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

In any event, Fidel will be dead soon. I think the embargo will be lifted, even if Raul is new President for Life. At this point, it is more symbolic than anything. Lots of people in the US and other places had their lives and property stolen. They need to know that the US does not approve.

PS. I would embargo Venezuela, ASAP. Chavez would not last more than a couple of months, IMHO.

We are getting off topic here, but you would embargo Venezuela because of Chavez !

I thought you were in support of democracy ? Chavez was legally voted in by 70%+ the first time and 64% the second time. On what basis would you embargo a legally elected leader of a soveriegn nation (one who we all are aware was elected by a significantly larger margin than most leaders ).

Are we - the western world - promoting democracy only until the results do not turn out in our favor, where upon we renage and cry foul ? This seems to be a time to suggest fair play ol' chap !

[PlayadelSoul]

Originally Posted by JEZ

We are getting off topic here, but you would embargo Venezuela because of Chavez !

I thought you were in support of democracy ? Chavez was legally voted in by 70%+ the first time and 64% the second time. On what basis would you embargo a legally elected leader of a soveriegn nation (one who we all are aware was elected by a significantly larger margin than most leaders ).

Are we - the western world - promoting democracy only until the results do not turn out in our favor, where upon we renage and cry foul ? This seems to be a time to suggest fair play ol' chap !

The second election was not fair. The man has declared himself leader for life and done away with the legislature and free press.

In any event, as a nation, we can choose to not do business with anyone we please. Just as you, as an individual, can decide not to do business with companies or individuals who do not meet certain standards.

[JEZ]

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

The second election was not fair. The man has declared himself leader for life and done away with the legislature and free press.

In any event, as a nation, we can choose to not do business with anyone we please. Just as you, as an individual, can decide not to do business with companies or individuals who do not meet certain standards.

I am interested in the second election being unfair. Any links ? Not to Fox news though !

Yes its possible to choose who any of us deal with. Fairness is not mandatory, merely an obligation of gentlemen....

[PlayadelSoul]

Venezuela: Academics' Study Backs Fraud Claim In Chavez Election | www.vcrisis.com

An article taken from the Wall Street Journal.

[Just Lucky]

If the main point of embargoes was to effect terrible human rights records, we would have an embargo at this moment on the Peoples Republic of China.

Of course an embargo on the PRC would negatively effect American profits. If you think the Chavez government is bad on human rights compare it to Saudi Arabia or the PRC.
We get too much oil from Venezuela for there to be an embargo. Which is not to say the US wouldn't repeat the support for a military coup against Chavez.

[melliedee]

Election fraud? Gosh, why don't the rest of the States just put out an embargo on Ohio and Florida?

I'm just not following the reasoning of punishing citizens for the ugly politics of certain leaders, democratically elected or otherwise. It has not proved mutually beneficial to either the US or Cuba, and I can't see the case for Venezeula. Trade with China and Venezeula is just too important to our economy, so is that the basis of our moral/political selectivity?