Hypocrisy?

PlayadelSoul · 09-01-2007

We have been having some fun with the Senator Craig situation, and it's probably justified. I kind of feel sorry for the guy, as it is possible (slight chance) that he actually didn't do anything wrong and pled guilty to a minor crime just to make it all go away (which would be silly, considering who he is).

I have heard, however, some commentators on TV claiming that if he is gay, that he is a hypocrite based on his voting record. I don't get that, to be honest. Are all gay men supposed to walk lockstep with the "gay agenda"? Are all black men supposed to vote the same? Women? Southern white boys?

Is it hypocrisy for a gay man to be against gay marriage? Is it hypocritical if a gay man thinks that hate crime legislation treats some victims differently from others? Watcha think?

**Heather** · 09-01-2007

Yeah, from what I've seen of his voting record, he's voted in favor of non-discrimination for gay people, but is against gay marriage. I don't really see it as hypocrisy; I know a lot of straight guys who are against heterosexual marriage, including the one I'm living with (ok, ok, he's not against it, it just isn't a priority for either of us).

roni · 09-01-2007

There are tens of thousands of men who take great umbrage at the suggestion they might be gay, but who also regularly have anonymous or near anonymous sex with other men. If Craig is guilty of anything, it may be of being a member of that group.

Then there is the mistaken notion that a high proportion of gay men are also pedophiles. This gives rise to concerns about the safety of children in public places where they cannot be accompanied by a parent - if that parent is a mother. This is, I suspect, one of the reasons that Craig's party has been pretty much insisting on a resignation - give the recent history of Foley and underage teen males.

Is there hypocrisy - well, sure - it is human drama, how could there not be hypocrisy. Plenty of it to go around to all sides, I reckon.

Joana · 09-01-2007

His voting record, as I saw it for example on THIS site, looks like this:

* Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
* Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
* Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
* Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
* Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)

While I do not neccesarily see voting against gay marriage as hypocritical, as it strongly depends on personal beliefs reg. marriage, wether gay or not, I do not fully understand why he voted no on prohibiting job discrimination or voted no on definition of hate crimes.

In both those cases I simply don't understand it as- even as a hetero as can be- I think I would have voted yes, as to me there is no doubt that there is job discrimination out there when it comes to gays (take the army as an example) and that some hate crimes are fueled by homophobia.
Thus I can't understand why someone who IS gay ( even if in a closet) would vote no on those.

I guess the reason he did it was to steer anyones attention away from the fact that he is gay or likes to experiment (if he is, that is- but as this was not the first incident he was involved in I think he very well may be).

PlayadelSoul · 09-01-2007

I believe his stance on hate crime legislation is the same as mine. All crime is committed with some level of hate. To single out some as a special class of victim runs counter to the idea of justice for all.

BonnyW · 09-01-2007

MikeW and I were watching television the other night...We heard Craig say,"I am not gay."
I turned to MikeW and said...
I'll translate that...What he really meant to 'not say' was, "I am bisexual, not gay." We laughed about it...

He probably isn't gay...he probably is bisexual. Not that it matters one way or the other what his preference is--he shouldn't lie about it...and if he wants to play the bathroom shuffle-touchy-feely thing, he should know that there is always that chance he will also get caught-isn't that part of the thrill of doing something like that in a public place--that one is not supposed to be doing something that, and there is a chance of getting caught?

I would have a lot more sympathy and forgiveness for the guy if he simply owned up. But no, he pleads guilty, but then right afterward, says, "I plead guilty to speed up the process, I am really not guilty." Well, if he is really not guilty, as a senator, he sure doesn't have a lot of faith in the legal process

.

MikeW · 09-01-2007

Hypocrite, absolutely.

This case reminds of a man I know who came out late in his adult life to finally admit to himself, his family and friends that he was gay. His early adult life was hell on those around them that were gay. He was taught growing up, gay was bad, evil, the work of the devil, etc. To fight his own feelings he would rant and rave about how it was a sin to be gay to any around him that showed gay tendencies. He married a nice woman, had kids, family, decent job. In his early 50's he broke down. Quit working, his wife supported their family. Finally one day he told his son, he was gay and was leaving, oh and tell your mother I'm gay and I'm leaving.

Hypocrite, absolutely.

Sadly he destroyed those who loved him the most. Had he been able to come to grips with who he really was early in his life, things would probably have been much more pleasant for himself and those around him.

I'm not saying Senator Craig is gay, but he is a hypocrite. His stance on issues and voting record; and his private life do not fall in line with each other. He has been decieving those who he represents, his family, and himself.

He pled guilty, he knew what he was doing.

PlayadelSoul · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

Hypocrite, absolutely.

This case reminds of a man I know who came out late in his adult life to finally admit to himself, his family and friends that he was gay. His early adult life was hell on those around them that were gay. He was taught growing up, gay was bad, evil, the work of the devil, etc. To fight his own feelings he would rant and rave about how it was a sin to be gay to any around him that showed gay tendencies. He married a nice woman, had kids, family, decent job. In his early 50's he broke down. Quit working, his wife supported their family. Finally one day he told his son, he was gay and was leaving, oh and tell your mother I'm gay and I'm leaving.

Hypocrite, absolutely.

Sadly he destroyed those who loved him the most. Had he been able to come to grips with who he really was early in his life, things would probably have been much more pleasant for himself and those around him.

I'm not saying Senator Craig is gay, but he is a hypocrite. His stance on issues and voting record; and his private life do not fall in line with each other. He has been decieving those who he represents, his family, and himself.

He pled guilty, he knew what he was doing.

So, if you are gay, it is mandatory that you support gay marriage and hate crime legislation? By that measure, all gays should be Democrats.

Jacko · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

So, if you are gay, it is mandatory that you support gay marriage and hate crime legislation? By that measure, all gays should be Democrats.

So many opportunities here...I think I will just leave it alone....

kirbyfan · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

Hypocrite, absolutely.

This case reminds of a man I know who came out late in his adult life to finally admit to himself, his family and friends that he was gay. His early adult life was hell on those around them that were gay. He was taught growing up, gay was bad, evil, the work of the devil, etc. To fight his own feelings he would rant and rave about how it was a sin to be gay to any around him that showed gay tendencies. He married a nice woman, had kids, family, decent job. In his early 50's he broke down. Quit working, his wife supported their family. Finally one day he told his son, he was gay and was leaving, oh and tell your mother I'm gay and I'm leaving.

Hypocrite, absolutely.

Sadly he destroyed those who loved him the most. Had he been able to come to grips with who he really was early in his life, things would probably have been much more pleasant for himself and those around him.

I'm not saying Senator Craig is gay, but he is a hypocrite. His stance on issues and voting record; and his private life do not fall in line with each other. He has been decieving those who he represents, his family, and himself.

He pled guilty, he knew what he was doing.

MikeW · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayadelSoul

So, if you are gay, it is mandatory that you support gay marriage and hate crime legislation? By that measure, all gays should be Democrats.

I know a lot of gay people. Friends and not. I have not met one that does not support both of those pieces of legislation. I support those. Oh, and I'm a registered Republican.

kirbyfan · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

I know a lot of gay people. Friends and not. I have not met one that does not support both of those pieces of legislation. I support those. Oh, and I'm a registered Republican.

Nice straw man arguement, unfortunately it doesnt hold any water.

PlayadelSoul · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW

I know a lot of gay people. Friends and not. I have not met one that does not support both of those pieces of legislation. I support those. Oh, and I'm a registered Republican.

I know gay men who support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I also know gay men who think hate crime legislation is legislative pork. Guess they will be kicked out of the club for independent thought.

**Heather** · 09-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joana

His voting record, as I saw it for example on THIS site, looks like this:

* Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
* Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
* Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
* Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
* Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)

While I do not neccesarily see voting against gay marriage as hypocritical, as it strongly depends on personal beliefs reg. marriage, wether gay or not, I do not fully understand why he voted no on prohibiting job discrimination or voted no on definition of hate crimes.

In both those cases I simply don't understand it as- even as a hetero as can be- I think I would have voted yes, as to me there is no doubt that there is job discrimination out there when it comes to gays (take the army as an example) and that some hate crimes are fueled by homophobia.
Thus I can't understand why someone who IS gay ( even if in a closet) would vote no on those.

I guess the reason he did it was to steer anyones attention away from the fact that he is gay or likes to experiment (if he is, that is- but as this was not the first incident he was involved in I think he very well may be).

Looks like I had either some false information or I just read stuff wrong. I have to reanalyze my position on this.

**TeeZet** · 09-01-2007

By the looks of it, gays are only human after all...

09-01-2007	#1 (permalink)
PlayadelSoul Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: We'll know when we get there, We'll find mercy Posts: 8,965	Hypocrisy? We have been having some fun with the Senator Craig situation, and it's probably justified. I kind of feel sorry for the guy, as it is possible (slight chance) that he actually didn't do anything wrong and pled guilty to a minor crime just to make it all go away (which would be silly, considering who he is). I have heard, however, some commentators on TV claiming that if he is gay, that he is a hypocrite based on his voting record. I don't get that, to be honest. Are all gay men supposed to walk lockstep with the "gay agenda"? Are all black men supposed to vote the same? Women? Southern white boys? Is it hypocrisy for a gay man to be against gay marriage? Is it hypocritical if a gay man thinks that hate crime legislation treats some victims differently from others? Watcha think?

09-01-2007	#4 (permalink)
Joana Niiiice!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The House of God Posts: 4,913	His voting record, as I saw it for example on THIS site, looks like this: * Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006) * Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002) * Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000) * Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996) * Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996) While I do not neccesarily see voting against gay marriage as hypocritical, as it strongly depends on personal beliefs reg. marriage, wether gay or not, I do not fully understand why he voted no on prohibiting job discrimination or voted no on definition of hate crimes. In both those cases I simply don't understand it as- even as a hetero as can be- I think I would have voted yes, as to me there is no doubt that there is job discrimination out there when it comes to gays (take the army as an example) and that some hate crimes are fueled by homophobia. Thus I can't understand why someone who IS gay ( even if in a closet) would vote no on those. I guess the reason he did it was to steer anyones attention away from the fact that he is gay or likes to experiment (if he is, that is- but as this was not the first incident he was involved in I think he very well may be). Last edited by Joana : 09-01-2007 at 09:56 AM.

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09-01-2007	#2 (permalink)
Heather Staff Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Playa del Carmen Posts: 9,042	Yeah, from what I've seen of his voting record, he's voted in favor of non-discrimination for gay people, but is against gay marriage. I don't really see it as hypocrisy; I know a lot of straight guys who are against heterosexual marriage, including the one I'm living with (ok, ok, he's not against it, it just isn't a priority for either of us).

09-01-2007	#3 (permalink)
roni Happy Curmudgeon Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 25,491	There are tens of thousands of men who take great umbrage at the suggestion they might be gay, but who also regularly have anonymous or near anonymous sex with other men. If Craig is guilty of anything, it may be of being a member of that group. Then there is the mistaken notion that a high proportion of gay men are also pedophiles. This gives rise to concerns about the safety of children in public places where they cannot be accompanied by a parent - if that parent is a mother. This is, I suspect, one of the reasons that Craig's party has been pretty much insisting on a resignation - give the recent history of Foley and underage teen males. Is there hypocrisy - well, sure - it is human drama, how could there not be hypocrisy. Plenty of it to go around to all sides, I reckon.

09-01-2007	#5 (permalink)
PlayadelSoul Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: We'll know when we get there, We'll find mercy Posts: 8,965	I believe his stance on hate crime legislation is the same as mine. All crime is committed with some level of hate. To single out some as a special class of victim runs counter to the idea of justice for all.

09-01-2007	#6 (permalink)
BonnyW añejo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Left Coast...So Cal Posts: 8,635	MikeW and I were watching television the other night...We heard Craig say,"I am not gay." I turned to MikeW and said... I'll translate that...What he really meant to 'not say' was, "I am bisexual, not gay." We laughed about it... He probably isn't gay...he probably is bisexual. Not that it matters one way or the other what his preference is--he shouldn't lie about it...and if he wants to play the bathroom shuffle-touchy-feely thing, he should know that there is always that chance he will also get caught-isn't that part of the thrill of doing something like that in a public place--that one is not supposed to be doing something that, and there is a chance of getting caught? I would have a lot more sympathy and forgiveness for the guy if he simply owned up. But no, he pleads guilty, but then right afterward, says, "I plead guilty to speed up the process, I am really not guilty." Well, if he is really not guilty, as a senator, he sure doesn't have a lot of faith in the legal process .

09-01-2007	#7 (permalink)
MikeW añejo Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 9,084	Hypocrite, absolutely. This case reminds of a man I know who came out late in his adult life to finally admit to himself, his family and friends that he was gay. His early adult life was hell on those around them that were gay. He was taught growing up, gay was bad, evil, the work of the devil, etc. To fight his own feelings he would rant and rave about how it was a sin to be gay to any around him that showed gay tendencies. He married a nice woman, had kids, family, decent job. In his early 50's he broke down. Quit working, his wife supported their family. Finally one day he told his son, he was gay and was leaving, oh and tell your mother I'm gay and I'm leaving. Hypocrite, absolutely. Sadly he destroyed those who loved him the most. Had he been able to come to grips with who he really was early in his life, things would probably have been much more pleasant for himself and those around him. I'm not saying Senator Craig is gay, but he is a hypocrite. His stance on issues and voting record; and his private life do not fall in line with each other. He has been decieving those who he represents, his family, and himself. He pled guilty, he knew what he was doing.

09-01-2007	#15 (permalink)
TeeZet Non-aggressive Dutch dude Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Uithoorn, The Netherlands Posts: 7,626	By the looks of it, gays are only human after all...

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