Living Green

[kirbyfan]

Originally Posted by Jacko

Its not about any particular messenger at any rate....it never was...not even when GW is the messenger.

Its ALWAYS about the messanger Jacko....

[Oso de Yogui]

Kudos to those that do what they can to save the planet! IMHO "green" is about creating new markets which is the real power of America. I work in the design/build business for an affluent local government. I see too many people trying to ram "green" initiatives down my throat without understanding the ramifications of first cost, questionable payback metrics, and unproven technologies. I prefer the term sustainability and believe that good design utilizing improved and proven technonologies like high efficiency motors and ballasts, VFD's, low water use fixtures, T5 lamps, improved building envelopes, Energy Star rated equipment, reflective roof materials, native/drought resistant plantings, ATC systems, etc.
I have a problem with people telling me I have to put a "green" roof on a renovated building when they drive away in their Hummer. Why should I pay to replace a perfectly good structure to support a "green" roof? After all, conservation of existing building materials is a part of sustainability.
Remember that typically the biggest energy use at work and at home is lighting, followed closely by HVAC. So try turning off the switch when you leave the room and maybe consider dressing appropriately for the season. Isn't it rediculous that we will eventually be mandated by code to have automated systems to turn things on and off because we don't have the real commitment to do it manually!
Don't even get me started on the maintenance challenges presented by some "green" technologies! Guess which department suffers budget cuts first!?
I still believe that a Manhattan type project for alternative fuel sources is truly viable and that industry will continue to make improvements that will make some of the offered alternatives first cost and life-cycle cost effective.
In the meantime I'll use the steps instead of the elevator, recycle, turn off the lights and TV when I leave the room, only burn my Christmas lights for a few hours an evening, put a flannel shirt on when I'm a little cool, and get nekkid when I'm hot.

[sn0wman]

This is a very expensive venture so far on our home front. So far we upgraded to a new home and out with the old 2x4 walled trailer. then we went with energy efficient appliences $$. then I bought a gas gussling 5.4 L 4x4 to drive to the gas wells at work..This last part is in need of some fine tuning on my part. Oh ya we also are using LED Christmas lights this year..

[MikeW]

Don't give this Administration too much credit.

"WASHINGTON, DC, December 19, 2007 (ENS) - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, has denied California's request to impose greenhouse gas emissions limits on motor vehicles. It is the first time the EPA has ever denied a waiver request under the Clean Air Act, and California officials are already preparing their lawsuit.
...
In rejecting California's request, EPA Administrator Stephen Johnson said the energy bill signed into law by President Bush today is "a national solution" that is better than a "confusing patchwork of state rules - to reduce America's climate footprint from vehicles."

But the Energy Independence and Security Act does not regulate greenhouse gas emissions, although it does mandate a fuel economy standard of 35 miles per gallon in the year 2020.
..."

Read More
EPA Rejects California's Greenhouse Gas Tailpipe Law

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Oso de Yogui

Kudos to those that do what they can to save the planet! IMHO "green" is about creating new markets which is the real power of America. I work in the design/build business for an affluent local government. I see too many people trying to ram "green" initiatives down my throat without understanding the ramifications of first cost, questionable payback metrics, and unproven technologies. I prefer the term sustainability and believe that good design utilizing improved and proven technonologies like high efficiency motors and ballasts, VFD's, low water use fixtures, T5 lamps, improved building envelopes, Energy Star rated equipment, reflective roof materials, native/drought resistant plantings, ATC systems, etc.
I have a problem with people telling me I have to put a "green" roof on a renovated building when they drive away in their Hummer. Why should I pay to replace a perfectly good structure to support a "green" roof? After all, conservation of existing building materials is a part of sustainability.
Remember that typically the biggest energy use at work and at home is lighting, followed closely by HVAC. So try turning off the switch when you leave the room and maybe consider dressing appropriately for the season. Isn't it rediculous that we will eventually be mandated by code to have automated systems to turn things on and off because we don't have the real commitment to do it manually!
Don't even get me started on the maintenance challenges presented by some "green" technologies! Guess which department suffers budget cuts first!?
I still believe that a Manhattan type project for alternative fuel sources is truly viable and that industry will continue to make improvements that will make some of the offered alternatives first cost and life-cycle cost effective.
In the meantime I'll use the steps instead of the elevator, recycle, turn off the lights and TV when I leave the room, only burn my Christmas lights for a few hours an evening, put a flannel shirt on when I'm a little cool, and get nekkid when I'm hot.

Conservation MUST be first...it is the one area with the quickest payback in terms of both energy and cost savings.....

I am interested in better understanding your comment...I definately believe you sould push back on anyone who might be "ramming" a particular solution down your throat that may not have the quickest payback UNLESS it is purely for marketing purposes of incenting the "greenness" in your community..we call these demonstration projects.....of course, in business we should be considering the most cost effective and costs saving solutions first...that is how we survive in business...and there are PLENTY of opportunities out there for us...particularly in my industry of hospitality!

And I agree...sustainability is a great term...to me living "green" means necessarily living sustainably. I also agree that the degree of our success will largely be determined by how effectively we embrace the concept you describe as creating new markets by creating new solutions that are truly more "green" or sustainable!

I was surprised to hear that lighting was highest energy use in the home...I would have thought it to be refrigeration and HVAC.
I also strongly agree with your suggestion of a "Manhattan Project" type effort focused on development of alternative energy design and technology...

We, in the U.S.,need to learn to lead in the area of sustainability rather than to continue to follow the Germans (solar, wind), the Norwegians (hydrogen fuel cell) and the Japanese (gas-electric hybrid).....High-paying, high-skill, technologically-oriented jobs is what we need..this is the perfect market to develop for this for the U.S. as we have lost the lower-skilled, old-style manufacturing jobs to other places in the world with cheaper labor markets.

It is notable that the Germans are way out front in solar...and yet they do not have that much sun or wind in Germany..they will NOT get the best, direct payback by implementing those technologies...they just understand the power of getting out ahead in terms of practical experience as these markets open up for them across the world...they will reap the indirect payback of being the technological leader to others..!

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by MikeW

Don't give this Administration too much credit.

"WASHINGTON, DC, December 19, 2007 (ENS) - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, has denied California's request to impose greenhouse gas emissions limits on motor vehicles. It is the first time the EPA has ever denied a waiver request under the Clean Air Act, and California officials are already preparing their lawsuit.
...
In rejecting California's request, EPA Administrator Stephen Johnson said the energy bill signed into law by President Bush today is "a national solution" that is better than a "confusing patchwork of state rules - to reduce America's climate footprint from vehicles."

But the Energy Independence and Security Act does not regulate greenhouse gas emissions, although it does mandate a fuel economy standard of 35 miles per gallon in the year 2020.
..."

Read More
EPA Rejects California's Greenhouse Gas Tailpipe Law

Yeah..I read that last night! I will be writing my letter to EPA Adminstrator Stephen Johnson this morning to let him know how outrageous I think this is!

[Oso de Yogui]

[quote=Jacko;1014609]Conservation MUST be first...it is the one area with the quickest payback in terms of both energy and cost savings.....
I am interested in better understanding your comment...I definately believe you sould push back on anyone who might be "ramming" a particular solution down your throat that may not have the quickest payback UNLESS it is purely for marketing purposes of incenting the "greenness" in your community..we call these demonstration projects.....of course, in business we should be considering the most cost effective and costs saving solutions first...that is how we survive in business...and there are PLENTY of opportunities out there for us...particularly in my industry of hospitality!
And I agree...sustainability is a great term...to me living "green" means necessarily living sustainably. I also agree that the degree of our success will largely be determined by how effectively we embrace the concept you describe as creating new markets by creating new solutions that are truly more "green" or sustainable!
I was surprised to hear that lighting was highest energy use in the home...I would have thought it to be refrigeration and HVAC.
I also strongly agree with your suggestion of a "Manhattan Project" type effort focused on development of alternative energy design and technology...

Jacko- I must say that I admire your passion on the issue. Like most issues, conservation could be dealt with by a thorough application of common sense (I've called it rare sense for some time)! My "ramming" comment is all about doing the right thing and exercising my fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayer. My better half and I will be in Playa Feb.6-16. I hope that our paths can cross and we can continue this discussion.....and maybe toss back a few!

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by roni

First step to green living

Move into a living space that contains no more than 600 sq feet person. Anything more than that gives you too much to heat, cool, light and is a waste of the earth's precious materials.

woohoo! i have 1300sqft for 5 people and 5 pets!

[TAPPY]

A few thoughts about going green....

We recently changed out our AC unit to a "greener" system, yes it was more $$$$ - and I have not seen a change in our overall bill yet, but it has been a very hot summer. But I am pleased with how it is working ....the house is cooler and the system seems to run less.
These systems are supposed to last longer with easier maintenance....hoping for the best as a/c is very important around here.

Last year we changed out our washer and dryer to "green applicances"...I do love the dryer and but the washer - sucks....
The water saving feature really does not get my clothes clean and forces me to do small loads.....but the worse is - it beats them up in the spin process.

I am doing research on those hand held steam cleaners for the home, I would love to go chemical free...does anyone use these ? Do they work ?
What about the steam cleaners for the floors ?

BTW - good link for those who are interested in this sort of choice


http://www.greenerchoices.org/produc...product=washer

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

A few thoughts about going green....

We recently changed out our AC unit to a "greener" system, yes it was more $$$$ - and I have not seen a change in our overall bill yet, but it has been a very hot summer. But I am pleased with how it is working ....the house is cooler and the system seems to run less.
These systems are supposed to last longer with easier maintenance....hoping for the best as a/c is very important around here.

Last year we changed out our washer and dryer to "green applicances"...I do love the dryer and but the washer - sucks....
The water saving feature really does not get my clothes clean and forces me to do small loads.....but the worse is - it beats them up in the spin process.

I am doing research on those hand held steam cleaners for the home, I would love to go chemical free...does anyone use these ? Do they work ?
What about the steam cleaners for the floors ?

BTW - good link for those who are interested in this sort of choice


GreenerChoices.org | Washers / Dryers: Green buying guide 5/09

Great stuff, Tappy! Regarding your new A/C unit, check to see if your cost per therm increased since you installed the unit...ours did...so we effectively have significantly reduced the number of therms we are using, yet our cost remained the same as the cost per therm increased.

Is the washer you are using a front loading washer? I love Consumer Reports!

We are paying $2,000 more for a food cooler in our restaurant kitchen because it is state of art energy efficient with EC motors....$6,200 installed...whew!

[emc]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

A few thoughts about going green....

We recently changed out our AC unit to a "greener" system, yes it was more $$$$ - and I have not seen a change in our overall bill yet, but it has been a very hot summer. But I am pleased with how it is working ....the house is cooler and the system seems to run less.
These systems are supposed to last longer with easier maintenance....hoping for the best as a/c is very important around here.

Last year we changed out our washer and dryer to "green applicances"...I do love the dryer and but the washer - sucks....
The water saving feature really does not get my clothes clean and forces me to do small loads.....but the worse is - it beats them up in the spin process.

I am doing research on those hand held steam cleaners for the home, I would love to go chemical free...does anyone use these ? Do they work ?
What about the steam cleaners for the floors ?

BTW - good link for those who are interested in this sort of choice


GreenerChoices.org | Washers / Dryers: Green buying guide 5/09

Tap, I have a floor steam cleaner. I hate it. I have lent it to 3 of my friends hoping they would keep it so I don't have to take up storage space. It keeps coming back. I think it's a shark (I will check), so it's not high end and that may have somethng to do with it.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by emc

Tap, I have a floor steam cleaner. I hate it. I have lent it to 3 of my friends hoping they would keep it so I don't have to take up storage space. It keeps coming back. I think it's a shark (I will check), so it's not high end and that may have somethng to do with it.

I have not found any good reviews on the hand held ones or the floor cleaners....but they look so good on TV.

I really want the hand held one for the bathroom, but the only one I have found is a Shark. I really want to get away from all the chemicals...and vinegar is fine for windows - but it reallyl does not do a good job on bathrooms and kitchens.


Jack - it is a front loading one and I love CR report to. Our next purchase will be a new Frig when this one goes out...and I will use them for research.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by Jacko

Great stuff, Tappy! Regarding your new A/C unit, check to see if your cost per therm increased since you installed the unit...ours did...so we effectively have significantly reduced the number of therms we are using, yet our cost remained the same as the cost per therm increased.

I will have to check that out...but for the record I really should not yank to much about my bill.
I have a 2,500 sq foot all electric home, and the bill for July was $210... during cool months it runs about $120.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by TAPPY

I have not found any good reviews on the hand held ones or the floor cleaners....but they look so good on TV.

I really want the hand held one for the bathroom, but the only one I have found is a Shark. I really want to get away from all the chemicals...and vinegar is fine for windows - but it reallyl does not do a good job on bathrooms and kitchens.


Jack - it is a front loading one and I love CR report to. Our next purchase will be a new Frig when this one goes out...and I will use them for research.

We had to send back a Kenmore Front Loading washer we bought for poor performance as well...I so wanted that new, more efficient technology to work well for us...perhaps next time we buy one we will realize the promised conservation benefits along with the desired performance.

[equinenut]

Originally Posted by emc

Tap, I have a floor steam cleaner. I hate it. I have lent it to 3 of my friends hoping they would keep it so I don't have to take up storage space. It keeps coming back. I think it's a shark (I will check), so it's not high end and that may have somethng to do with it.

Originally Posted by TAPPY

I have not found any good reviews on the hand held ones or the floor cleaners....but they look so good on TV.

I really want the hand held one for the bathroom, but the only one I have found is a Shark. I really want to get away from all the chemicals...and vinegar is fine for windows - but it reallyl does not do a good job on bathrooms and kitchens.

I've heard varying opinions of the Shark. I have one and I really like it. It does not pick up hair or small particles like a regular mop but I just make sure I presweep really well. It's so nice to be chemical free!!