jerk kills a puppy

[Moses266]

If some one threw one of my dogs or one of my kids over a cliff I don't think I would differentiate. I'd gladly throw throw the idiot off the same cliff in either case.
I think that if governments allowed people to see the torture and murder of innocent people then we would all be just as sickened as we are by the images of this guy throwing the puppy. State sanctioned means state controlled right? I beleive I read that the US government does not permit the media to be at airports when the wounded soldires return from Iraq for exactly that reason. People would be sickened and disgusted to see 20 somethings returning withoout arms and legs or worse.
I remember a few years back when our Canadian Air borne guys were in Somalia and some one took a picture of a soldier holding a dead Somali teenager by the hair. The Canada as a whole was very digusted and ashamed by this to the point where the enitre unit was disbanded. So, if people do see human torture I think they are at least as upset as they are with animal torture.

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by Rissask

I feel bad about the act, any kind of senseless cruelty to animals makes me really angry.

But mostly I feel sad for him and thousands of other people, who have been permanently emotionally and/or physically effed up and scarred by this and other wars.


The other discussion about how everything is relative...I can your point Joana, but also UGAPlaya's...perspective is important.
I recall another board where there was a discussion between women about miscarriages...one woman said that a woman having a miscarrriage at 4 weeks is just as devastating as a woman losing a baby at nine months; that 'you cannot measure whose pain is greater'...well, that may be a tough call, but I think any reasonable person can make an objective statement that yes, the former is not as great a tragedy as the latter.
So if I were told I had Type 2 diabetes would I be as devastated as if you told me I had Stage 4 cancer? Of course not.

Yeah Ris for me, it's a dog. More than likely a stray. He was a cute little booger too. But at the end of the day yesterday it didn't even cross my mind. Yesterday I read about Patrick Sweazy's cancer diagnosis and THAT crossed my mind last night as I was watching TV. I know he has a family and kids. That's what I mean by perspective.

[taotoon]

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

Oh come on now. Are you telling me there's not different levels of wrong? You don't have kids do you? That's why I said earlier that people need a little perspective. It was a DOG, a stray DOG. Yes it was cruel and stupid and everything else and sure he should be punished. But if someone assaulted my dog (yes I have two dogs), I would be ticked. If someone assaulted my kids, it's a whole other level.

There are different "levels" of wrong but you should never use one to debase another. It may have been a stray dog but that does not make it any less horrible then if it was someone's pet. It was a living creature ffs. To use your own example that would be like saying killing a homeless person is less of a horrible act then killing someone who has a home.

[laurab]

No I don't think it's the first incident. And yes I am more upset about what I read this morning in the paper, a one year old girl died in cancun hospital after being repeatedly raped (by her dad maybe??), I cried as I read it and still have a lump in my stomach. It's senseless. I'm just saying that putting things into perspective is not really fair on the "lesser" wrongdoings is it? Next thing I'll read is " Honestly, good grief, so he killed a soldier". (As opposed to......??? a civilian?? a child???)
And I never said anything about soldiers, the image I have of this guy in my head is not a soldier, just a guy.

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

You're welcome to your opinion. You think I'm wrong, I think I'm right.....so there. :-)~ Honestly, good grief, so he killed a puppy. Do you think this is the first incident like this??? Heck no. The Germans, the British, etc. They all have bad eggs like this in their military. God bless our soldiers, even the ones who don't like dogs. :-)

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by laurab

I'm just saying that putting things into perspective is not really fair on the "lesser" wrongdoings is it? Next thing I'll read is " Honestly, good grief, so he killed a soldier". (As opposed to......??? a civilian?? a child???)
And I never said anything about soldiers, the image I have of this guy in my head is not a soldier, just a guy.

No, you won't hear that from me.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by taotoon

There are different "levels" of wrong but you should never use one to debase another. It may have been a stray dog but that does not make it any less horrible then if it was someone's pet. It was a living creature ffs. To use your own example that would be like saying killing a homeless person is less of a horrible act then killing someone who has a home.

Nicely stated. It sometimes takes the application of the same logic to a different situation to put the argument in a clear perspective.

Of course we'd be more upset if this were our own dog rather than a random stray; doesn't change the wrong factor, imo.

[Moses266]

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

Yeah Ris for me, it's a dog. More than likely a stray. He was a cute little booger too. But at the end of the day yesterday it didn't even cross my mind. Yesterday I read about Patrick Sweazy's cancer diagnosis and THAT crossed my mind last night as I was watching TV. I know he has a family and kids. That's what I mean by perspective.

Unfortunately I hear Patrick Swayze and all I can think of is Dirty Dancing and the terrible realism that once you see something you can't un-see it.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by Moses266

If some one threw one of my dogs or one of my kids over a cliff I don't think I would differentiate. I'd gladly throw throw the idiot off the same cliff in either case.
I think that if governments allowed people to see the torture and murder of innocent people then we would all be just as sickened as we are by the images of this guy throwing the puppy. State sanctioned means state controlled right? I beleive I read that the US government does not permit the media to be at airports when the wounded soldires return from Iraq for exactly that reason. People would be sickened and disgusted to see 20 somethings returning withoout arms and legs or worse.
I remember a few years back when our Canadian Air borne guys were in Somalia and some one took a picture of a soldier holding a dead Somali teenager by the hair. The Canada as a whole was very digusted and ashamed by this to the point where the enitre unit was disbanded. So, if people do see human torture I think they are at least as upset as they are with animal torture.

For sure there would be a far louder outcry against the war if they released more images from what's going on over there.

I remember those photos of some of our soldiers and that Somali boy, and the resultant outcry. Horrible. Didn't they kill him too, by torturing him?

it does seem that some people have become desensitized to stories of human suffering and yet you will always get a big reaction to a story of animal suffering. I think this is a normal reaction though, we don't know how to process it.

[TAPPY]

Originally Posted by taotoon

There are different "levels" of wrong but you should never use one to debase another. It may have been a stray dog but that does not make it any less horrible then if it was someone's pet. It was a living creature ffs. To use your own example that would be like saying killing a homeless person is less of a horrible act then killing someone who has a home.

I agree Taotoon.
And I have always heard you call tell what is in a persons heart by they way they treat animals.

Yeah - and if it was my dog, I to would have no problem throwing him off the cliff either.

[Moses266]

Originally Posted by Rissask

For sure there would be a far louder outcry against the war if they released more images from what's going on over there.

I remember those photos of some of our soldiers and that Somali boy, and the resultant outcry. Horrible. Didn't they kill him too, by torturing him?

it does seem that some people have become desensitized to stories of human suffering and yet you will always get a big reaction to a story of animal suffering. I think this is a normal reaction though, we don't know how to process it.

I think you are right, they killed him as well. I think he was just looking for food, the soldiers caught him stealing and ended up killing him over it. Very sad sad day for Canada indeed.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Joana

To clarify: as I said in my post HIS myspace page is set to private by now- and the other is ABOUT him not BY him.
It was made by someone who is upset about this guy and shows up if you search the guys name.

The other three vids are DIFFERENT soldiers- not the puppy thrower.


Jacko- on the one hand I agree when you say that he is a Marine shouldn't play a role in this part because what he did is just HIM being a jerk. On the other (esp. as there are those other vids of soldiers on duty in Iraq doing the same thing, torturing animals) it somehow does have to do with it as

a) there are certain professions that you expect "good" stuff and "right" stuff from, foremost doctors, nurses, policemen etc. (and yes, all of those have had members of their profession screw up before as well!) but soldiers as well. If you read comments on the pages where the video is being shown many are upset and say that as a Marine he should not do such a dishonourable thing............hard to explain, but maybe you get my drift. There are simply groups and professions out there who are claimed to have a special sense of "honour", the Marines being one of them. That is why the vid is even more irritating. On the other hand: Marines are drilled to kill. So why is everyone so surprised a Marine is able to kill a puppy?

b) his profession is also playing a role in this when you read the excuse- he says it had to do with his job and what he sees on duty that he acted this way. And there are others who do the same, on video. Who might have the same excuse. So the question I would ask is: shouldn't people in the army, esp. those doing "front-duty" be trained better to deal with stress? It IS part of their work after all to see gruesome things, shouldn't they be taught to deal with it in a more healthy way than throwing puppies off cliffs? I know that those in Abu Ghraib used the same excuses for what they did...............
And - to take the focus away from the US soldiers- I remember the uproar in Germany when some German soldiers posed with skulls from a mass grave for pictures in Afghanistan. They stated the same thing.
So the question has to be asked: how can you prepare the folks who do this kind of job BETTER for the stress they will face and the things they will see??

IMO, you can't ...because it is not the stress of training that is likely causing this behavior, ....and in MOST cases, it is not the stress of intense, active duty combat. Perhaps training can do a better job of teaching basic ethics and morals to young people that have already ingrained attitudes...but that is a VERY tall order.

Give me someone with a great attitude and raised with strong ethics and morals and I can teach them most anything. Give me someone who is very smart, but has a bad attitude or lacking ethics or morals and I would most often be wasting my time.

I think we must be very careful here in how we assess all of this...extreme combat stress in the field is one thing...the vast majority of all active duty military folks are never exposed to that....is that the claim of this person?

Beyond that, IMO, the military training you speak of is not near strong enough to overcome basic attitudes and personality traits we all established as children...you know, "Everything I Ever Learned, I Learned in Kindergarten" type philosophy.

Regardless, the "excuses" you speak of above should NEVER be acceptable...not by us, or by the teachings of any civilized military organization. I do not believe any responsible military person has made the point that these excuses would be valid for the types of behavior we saw at Abu Graib...or for throwing a defenseless puppy over the cliff......

[Gulliver]

It amazes me that people are still taking pictures or videos of themselves doing stupid and sometimes illegal things when they will most likely end up on the internet and it usually costs them their job or their freedom.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Rissask

For sure there would be a far louder outcry against the war if they released more images from what's going on over there.

I remember those photos of some of our soldiers and that Somali boy, and the resultant outcry. Horrible. Didn't they kill him too, by torturing him?

it does seem that some people have become desensitized to stories of human suffering and yet you will always get a big reaction to a story of animal suffering. I think this is a normal reaction though, we don't know how to process it.

I agree with all of this....and I agree the reaction may be normal...it certainly is not natural and we should all seek to keep it from remaining normal.

[Sol]

I can't watch the video. I don't deal well with the mistreatment of humans or animals. Makes one wonder what kind of mindset this sick bastard had before he went into the military. I don't think his experience turned him into such a person, instead, it just excerbated his penchance for being cruel to animals.


Like Moses indicated, maybe if in the US the media would show more the horrific things going on in the Middle East we would be more sensitive. Due to the censorship and omission of some of the events/situations, it seems as if the news is repetitive and that contributes to our desensitization of cruelty. It reminds me of the news during the Vietnam war. All that was featured were the body counts and some scenes with soldiers and civilians. It was not until that little Vietnamese girl who had napalm burning her back did the US public see a fraction of what was really happening.

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by Gulliver

It amazes me that people are still taking pictures or videos of themselves doing stupid and sometimes illegal things when they will most likely end up on the internet and it usually costs them their job or their freedom.

Yep, that pretty much sums up the whole thing. As Forrest Gump once said, "stupid is as stupid does"