No Rules Good or Bad?

[StephenB]

I'm going to try and answer this question without sounding too stupid or sentimental, but I admit from the start that I am a sentimental old fashioned ahole. What attracts me most to Mexico is the heart and soul of the people and the vibe I get every time I am there. I'm not bashing the US, but I personally feel Mexico and it's people have something we have lost in the US.

It's really hard to put your finger on it or define it. We're fortunate in that we have a few close Mexican friends. We've been invited to baptisims, funerals, parties, and everything in between. The feeling for family is everywhere and palpable. I remember this sort of feeling growing up, but now I only feel it in Mexico. I don't feel this vibe in the states. I also see a real joy of just being alive. I see this rarely where I live. I'm not saying it's not there...maybe it's just harder to see? I see people going to church and not being mocked for it. I see people working their asses off 6 days a week and having a 100% blast when they get a free day. I see people who don't have squat, yet know how to live. I see people who have been offered free air fare and a place to live in the US who decline because they are happy. I see people who wouldn't ever think of putting their parents or grandparents in a nursing home for convenience, even if they had the money. I see the bad too.

I see the US as it was at one time. When we weren't 3 car families-when things were a lot more simple than they are today. It's my escape. It's not so much the lack of rules. It's the unabashed struggle and unabashed rhythm and joy that is part of the Mexican culture I so much love. Mexico is not perfect. One of my favorite sayings sums it up...."You live to work, we work to live". Viva Mexico! y Lost Estados Unidos Tambien!!

[Buggirl]

Originally Posted by StephenB

I'm going to try and answer this question without sounding too stupid or sentimental, but I admit from the start that I am a sentimental old fashioned ahole. What attracts me most to Mexico is the heart and soul of the people and the vibe I get every time I am there. I'm not bashing the US, but I personally feel Mexico and it's people have something we have lost in the US.

It's really hard to put your finger on it or define it. We're fortunate in that we have a few close Mexican friends. We've been invited to baptisims, funerals, parties, and everything in between. The feeling for family is everywhere and palpable. I remember this sort of feeling growing up, but now I only feel it in Mexico. I don't feel this vibe in the states. I also see a real joy of just being alive. I see this rarely where I live. I'm not saying it's not there...maybe it's just harder to see? I see people going to church and not being mocked for it. I see people working their asses off 6 days a week and having a 100% blast when they get a free day. I see people who don't have squat, yet know how to live. I see people who have been offered free air fare and a place to live in the US who decline because they are happy. I see people who wouldn't ever think of putting their parents or grandparents in a nursing home for convenience, even if they had the money. I see the bad too.

I see the US as it was at one time. When we weren't 3 car families-when things were a lot more simple than they are today. It's my escape. It's not so much the lack of rules. It's the unabashed struggle and unabashed rhythm and joy that is part of the Mexican culture I so much love. Mexico is not perfect. One of my favorite sayings sums it up...."You live to work, we work to live". Viva Mexico! y Lost Estados Unidos Tambien!!

I hear you on the family thing, Stephen. I have a couple of good Mexican friends and family is first and foremost to them. They were in the US for grad school and they were both here to get a good education and bring their skills home to improve their country (they studied agriculture and were trying to bring safe and/or sustainable growing practiced to Mexico). According to them, getting a PhD in the US means a lot to Mexican research agencies.

When one family member was coming to visit- half the family ended up showing up It was great- if someone in the family was brave enough to endure the long bus ride to Mexico City and take a flight to the cold US- then all of a sudden, other family members started to tag along. They both also visited home as often as their schedule allowed. Being a grad student as well (and making the same stipend), I estimated that they spent AT LEAST half of their yearly income on plane tickets home (and for certain family members that couldn't afford to fly here).

My family is nothing like this. I'll leave it at that.

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by Rissask

I think a lot of people would really enjoy aspects of it...until something happens to them and they can't get protection or justice or help...then, they wouldn't like it so much.

Kind of like all the people (many of whom I've met and to whom I've spoken) that decry "lawsuit abuse," scream for "tort reform," and characterize lawyers as the "scum of the earth."

Until they need one.

I can't TELL you the number of times I have had to break bad news to potential clients about their case in regard to significant obstacles or complete BARRIERS to recovery because of "tort reform" legislation and anti-Plaintiff attitudes in Texas.

They always tell me, "but those rules are for all the cheaters and fakers, not for honest people like me with legitimate claims." Of course, I have to tell them that the 99 people in my office before them were in the exact same position.

Then I also tell them that the insurance companies KNOW that the vast majority of claimants are legitimate, and of course, so do the legislators (mostly Republican) who are VERY well paid by the insurance lobby to pass this "tort reform" legislation in the first place.

Mexico is a wonderful place, and I love visiting there. But I would HATE to be in the position of being injured due to the negligence of another, because there is practically NO means to recover damages (at least as far as I understand their legal system.)

I guess what I'm saying is that one person's "bastion of freedom" is another person's "hellhole of lack of accountability."

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by sctx

wow..... what a great description of Houston, Texas

Yeah, except Houston has the Orange Show!

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by StephenB

I'm going to try and answer this question without sounding too stupid or sentimental, but I admit from the start that I am a sentimental old fashioned ahole. What attracts me most to Mexico is the heart and soul of the people and the vibe I get every time I am there. I'm not bashing the US, but I personally feel Mexico and it's people have something we have lost in the US.

It's really hard to put your finger on it or define it. We're fortunate in that we have a few close Mexican friends. We've been invited to baptisims, funerals, parties, and everything in between. The feeling for family is everywhere and palpable. I remember this sort of feeling growing up, but now I only feel it in Mexico. I don't feel this vibe in the states. I also see a real joy of just being alive. I see this rarely where I live. I'm not saying it's not there...maybe it's just harder to see? I see people going to church and not being mocked for it. I see people working their asses off 6 days a week and having a 100% blast when they get a free day. I see people who don't have squat, yet know how to live. I see people who have been offered free air fare and a place to live in the US who decline because they are happy. I see people who wouldn't ever think of putting their parents or grandparents in a nursing home for convenience, even if they had the money. I see the bad too.

I see the US as it was at one time. When we weren't 3 car families-when things were a lot more simple than they are today. It's my escape. It's not so much the lack of rules. It's the unabashed struggle and unabashed rhythm and joy that is part of the Mexican culture I so much love. Mexico is not perfect. One of my favorite sayings sums it up...."You live to work, we work to live". Viva Mexico! y Lost Estados Unidos Tambien!!

Excellent post, well said. I agree with your sentiment!!!






Well, that and the fact that I can buy and drink Habana Club Siete Anos (as pictured in my avatar), which I canNOT get in the U.S.!

[Opatije]

Originally Posted by StephenB

I see people who wouldn't ever think of putting their parents or grandparents in a nursing home for convenience, even if they had the money.

Absolutely...convenience and lack of compassion.

[Juanito]

Originally Posted by Mr Cancun

Capitalism is bad, the political systems of socialism and communism are intended to diminish the conflicts arising from the unequal distribution of wealth. The idea is that a government, serving the interests of the proletariat, would confiscate the wealth of the rich and then distribute benefits to the poor.

Under capitalism, man exploits man.

But under socialism, it's the other way around.

(I'll be here all week. Don't forget about your hard-working serving staff.)

This seems to be On Topic.

And it explains Daddy B's "location".

[Rissask]

StewartG:

Mexico is a wonderful place, and I love visiting there. But I would HATE to be in the position of being injured due to the negligence of another, because there is practically NO means to recover damages (at least as far as I understand their legal system.)

I guess what I'm saying is that one person's "bastion of freedom" is another person's "hellhole of lack of accountability."

Yes....and I am not even thinking of recovering damages, as much as I was thinking about- can I get a decent prosthetic without paying an arm and a leg (no pun intended)? Can I buy disability insurance just in case this happens? If I am injured at work, will my family be able to buy food and pay rent? things like that.


I also liked your post Stephen.

And I agree- it certainly appears to be so, that Mexicans in general place more importance on the family, and I have thought similar things as you wrote myself on trips to Mexico ..... but I am not sure we would agree on the reasons why this is the way it is, though. I do think some of it might be sentimental interpretation on your part, perhaps.

And I am not sure whether this possibly might also have a lot to do with where one is from? I think a lot of what you describe is still alive and well in the rest of North America, apart from the big city rat race, for example. Family is very important to me and most of my friends.

Will I be changing my mom's diapers one day though....not bloody likely no ....but do Mexican people even have the option of a nursing home for their loved ones, let alone be able to afford it? And- I wonder how many people don't properly care for their elders there- is elder abuse never an issue?

Not really a fair comparison- necessity outweighs what people would do if they acutally had a choice, there....not to say that because we have more choice, we are better off, of course- but in some ways we are I think. And in some ways, sure, they are.

[Rissask]

MEXICO CITY - Mexicans spent a whopping $2.58 billion in bribes in 2007, some 42 percent more than they doled out just two years ago, according to a poll released Wednesday.


The survey, conducted by the nonprofit group Transparency Mexico, showed that 197 million bribes were paid nationwide in 2007 - compared to 115 million in 2005.


That's almost two for every living Mexican, given the country's population of about 105 million. Bribes ate up about 8 percent of family incomes here in 2007, the study said.


Corruption is so rooted and pervasive in Mexican culture that many people see nothing wrong with it. A continuum runs from tipping a waiter to bribing a politician, with no clear line separating what's acceptable and what's not.

For Rodolfo Guzman, bribes are the price of doing business.

The Mexico City bus driver hands out about 500 pesos ($48) per year to cops so they turn a blind eye when he drops off and picks up passengers at places along the road that are not official bus stops. The bribes run between 20 and 50 pesos ($3.20 to $4.75) every time police catch him.

"The truth is, it is just easier that way," Guzman said, noting that paying a traffic fine would be more costly and time consuming.

But the study also reveals Mexicans must pay bribes even when they're not breaking the law.

Bribes move about 10 percent of all government transactions - including those to obtain construction licenses, vehicle inspection stickers and street-vending permits.

Among the top 10 most frequent bribes people reported paying were to city tanker trucks that deliver drinking water to homes in poorer neighborhoods. Others paid to get their trash collected, their goods passed through customs and their cars out of police lots after they were towed.

WOW....yeah, that's a lot of money....this is something that really needs to be fixed from within.

I tried to give that cop who stopped me last week a little mordida....he wouldn't go for it.
No dice. Lucky Mexicans.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Yes....and I am not even thinking of recovering damages, as much as I was thinking about- can I get a decent prosthetic without paying an arm and a leg (no pun intended)? Can I buy disability insurance just in case this happens? If I am injured at work, will my family be able to buy food and pay rent? things like that.


I also liked your post Stephen.

And I agree- it certainly appears to be so, that Mexicans in general place more importance on the family, and I have thought similar things as you wrote myself on trips to Mexico ..... but I am not sure we would agree on the reasons why this is the way it is, though. I do think some of it might be sentimental interpretation on your part, perhaps.

And I am not sure whether this possibly might also have a lot to do with where one is from? I think a lot of what you describe is still alive and well in the rest of North America, apart from the big city rat race, for example. Family is very important to me and most of my friends.

Will I be changing my mom's diapers one day though....not bloody likely no ....but do Mexican people even have the option of a nursing home for their loved ones, let alone be able to afford it? And- I wonder how many people don't properly care for their elders there- is elder abuse never an issue?

Not really a fair comparison- necessity outweighs what people would do if they acutally had a choice, there....not to say that because we have more choice, we are better off, of course- but in some ways we are I think. And in some ways, sure, they are.

I underestand where this comment comes from...but I will tell you this...some of the days I spent with my father taking care of him with his leukemia before he died...diapers then catheter...were some of the most human, bittersweet, poignant and "real" moments in my life...through the morphine and the pain......its amazing the different (and deeper) ways you get to know your father under these circumstances... It was very, very difficult..but I am glad we went through that final walk for him together...
Back on your topic...choices are very good...but lack of choices and the resulting adversity this might cause often builds character in important ways and creates unique experiences that otherwise might not be possible.

[Rissask]

Back on your topic...choices are very good...but lack of choices and the resulting adversity this might cause often builds character in important ways and creates unique experiences that otherwise might not be possible.

Agreed.

In SO many ways we spoon feed people too much in Canada. It is easier for way too many people here to collect welfare rather than get out and find work here, and that does NOTHING for them as a group in regards to their self respect, confidence, and pride- nothing at all.
But there are many negatives to living in a 'traditional society' like theirs too....negatives you might empathize with more if you didn't have those dangly bits between your legs.

I didn't mean to come across like an ungrateful, spoiled child. I love my parents and am very close to them. If the time comes when I might be called upon to do something I can;t imagine I would be able to, I think I would be able to do what it takes. I think I was thinking more of years of very high needs care, not days. I am not sure I would be able to do that, I am not that selfless for sure.

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Agreed.

In SO many ways we spoon feed people too much in Canada. It is easier for way too many people here to collect welfare rather than get out and find work here, and that does NOTHING for them as a group in regards to their self respect, confidence, and pride- nothing at all.
But there are many negatives to living in a 'traditional society' like theirs too....negatives you might empathize with more if you didn't have those dangly bits between your legs.

I didn't mean to come across like an ungrateful, spoiled child. I love my parents and am very close to them. If the time comes when I might be called upon to do something I can;t imagine I would be able to, I think I would be able to do what it takes. I think I was thinking more of years of very high needs care, not days. I am not sure I would be able to do that, I am not that selfless for sure.

"dangly bits???

And I would never imagine you being a spoiled child and I did NOT intend to infer that it any way.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by Jacko

"dangly bits???

And I would never imagine you being a spoiled child and I did NOT intend to infer that it any way.

Well, I know it's an assumption on my part that they do in fact, 'dangle', but I have faith they do. (See-I have faith about certain things!) But let's face it- your dangly bits DO make you interpret things differently from thoseof us without them.



and part two- no, you didn't, but my own statement did, somewhat.

[STOGEY]

Originally Posted by Rissask

I read in the smoking thread in the General forum, this statement, sort of paraphrased: a lot of ex-pats move to Mexico because it is one of the last bastions of personal freedom and responsibility.

I have heard this before of course, we all have, from tourists too, some of whom see being able to carry a beer around in public is titillating enough proof that 'Mexicans have it much better than we do'.

Is this how people see Mexico? Is it really accurate, or is the reality a bit different, in your opinion?

Is freedom to do as you choose better than having rules and regulations in a society? Or does it just cause more serious problems?


Which society would you rather live in, and why? (One where there is complete freedom and no rules, or one where there are clearly defined sets of rules and regs and a competent police and justice system enforcing them.)

All societies have rules or traditions that bind them to one another.