A serious question for those who do not believe in God

[pamplemoose77]

this analogy may come back to bite me in the butt, but it won't be the first time.

i have never been scuba diving. i have seen tropical fish in photos. i have seen tropical fish in aquariums. i have even seen tropical fish when snorkelling. i have never seen coral reefs from a depth of more than about 4 feet (i don't dive well with a snorkel, ok). i have never experienced what i would imagine to be an all-encompassing sense of wonder and freedom of swimming far below the ocean's surface...of seeing the oceanic world thru those new eyes. of feeling part of that world rather than an observer..

if i ever did go scuba diving, i would assume that there were some parameters to my new found freedom and experience in the water. i would assume that i would have some things to learn. i would assume that i would need a guide to teach me. i would assume that there were rules that i needed to abide by, rather they seemed "fair" to me or not. i would assume that my instructor wanted the best for me, and was not trying to just play favorites or deprive me of some great experience.. like the bends.. or whatever.

however, this wouldn't hamper my enjoyment of the experience. this would be part of the experience. i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming over the rules. i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming that somebody else got to see a prettier fish than mine. i would assume that their diving experience would in fact be different than mine. would it be any less fantastic for them than mine was for me? no.

would my experience be less meaningful than the next guys cuz i didn't see the same fish or have the same instructor? if my instructor taught me to clear my mask differently than the next guy, does that make it wrong? if my mask is hazy and i can't see things clearly, does that mean i'm not really a diver? if i face uncertainties and stumble along the way, should i give up diving?

again, i've never been scuba diving. so i don't think that i can fully wrap my head around the experience. but i can try to put myself in the other person's shoes and give them the decency and respect to see why diving might be a really great thing. even if my diving experience NEVER matched up with theirs.

i pretty well feel this way about my relationship with God. i will never be able to fully explain how it feels for me... what fish i see... why i learned from the instructor i learned from, etc, etc, etc.

but that doesn't stop me from diving into it

[Rissask]

You are such a sweet woman. I liked that. I do respect the importance you and others place on faith in your life.
I don't want anyone to think that me questioning the idea of god, means I don't respect the people who believe differently from me.

[FrankRN]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

this analogy may come back to bite me in the butt, but it won't be the first time.

i have never been scuba diving. i have seen tropical fish in photos. i have seen tropical fish in aquariums. i have even seen tropical fish when snorkelling. i have never seen coral reefs from a depth of more than about 4 feet (i don't dive well with a snorkel, ok). i have never experienced what i would imagine to be an all-encompassing sense of wonder and freedom of swimming far below the ocean's surface...of seeing the oceanic world thru those new eyes. of feeling part of that world rather than an observer..

if i ever did go scuba diving, i would assume that there were some parameters to my new found freedom and experience in the water. i would assume that i would have some things to learn. i would assume that i would need a guide to teach me. i would assume that there were rules that i needed to abide by, rather they seemed "fair" to me or not. i would assume that my instructor wanted the best for me, and was not trying to just play favorites or deprive me of some great experience.. like the bends.. or whatever.

however, this wouldn't hamper my enjoyment of the experience. this would be part of the experience. i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming over the rules. i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming that somebody else got to see a prettier fish than mine. i would assume that their diving experience would in fact be different than mine. would it be any less fantastic for them than mine was for me? no.

would my experience be less meaningful than the next guys cuz i didn't see the same fish or have the same instructor? if my instructor taught me to clear my mask differently than the next guy, does that make it wrong? if my mask is hazy and i can't see things clearly, does that mean i'm not really a diver? if i face uncertainties and stumble along the way, should i give up diving?

again, i've never been scuba diving. so i don't think that i can fully wrap my head around the experience. but i can try to put myself in the other person's shoes and give them the decency and respect to see why diving might be a really great thing. even if my diving experience NEVER matched up with theirs.

i pretty well feel this way about my relationship with God. i will never be able to fully explain how it feels for me... what fish i see... why i learned from the instructor i learned from, etc, etc, etc.

but that doesn't stop me from diving into it

I think the Pope (and the leaders of the worlds other major religions) might disagree with you. Allows too much room for self direction. Just look what happened when the church could not quash the reformation.

But you did make me want to get an aquarium.

[vieve]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

this analogy may come back to bite me in the butt, but it won't be the first time.

i have never been scuba diving. i have seen tropical fish in photos. i have seen tropical fish in aquariums. i have even seen tropical fish when snorkelling. i have never seen coral reefs from a depth of more than about 4 feet (i don't dive well with a snorkel, ok). i have never experienced what i would imagine to be an all-encompassing sense of wonder and freedom of swimming far below the ocean's surface...of seeing the oceanic world thru those new eyes. of feeling part of that world rather than an observer..

but that doesn't stop me from diving into it

Charity, this reminded me of one of my favorite quotes:
There are only two ways to live . . . one is as though nothing is
a miracle. . . the other is as if everything is.
- Albert Einstein
__________________________________________________ ____________________

[Daddy B]

Originally Posted by roni

I like satin just fine, but it is kinda slick and slippery - it is shiny pretty, though. Good for night clothes, not so much for sheets.

Red satin...?

[Just Lucky]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Lets not leave out surgery and medication. Given a choice between prayer and surgery, I'll go with surgery.

Now your supposed to tell me how God helps those who help themselves. I will concede that many surgeons have a God complex ... not sure that counts though.

I hope this doesn't cause the thread to be locked.

I don't want to explain how I know this.

It was the Eagles who did that song Peaceful Easy Feeling.

[roni]

Originally Posted by Daddy B

Red satin...?

Black Satanic Satin

[vieve]

Here is a fun little test based on world religions:
RELIGION GOD THEOLOGY JESUS BELIEF SYSTEMS Christian Science Conservative Christian Humanist Liberal Christian Unitarian Universalist Bahá'í Neo-Pagan Orthodox Quaker Liberal Quaker New Age New Thought Reform Judaism Jehovah's Witness East Orthodox T

I've found that the reults of this sometimes surprise people- for example, my devoutly catholic Aunt tested surprisingly pagan and my Wiccan mother-in-law was more protestant than she wanted to admit to being!
Not sure if the results include Satanism...maybe Daddy B could let us know?

Just realized that my bookmark was out dated... I think this link takes you to the right place.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by Just Lucky

I hope this doesn't cause the thread to be locked.

I don't want to explain how I know this.

It was the Eagles who did that song Peaceful Easy Feeling.

Sorry Frank..I was thinking the same thing...JOHN DENVER?? That is an Eagles song.

Has anyone else seen this (if you have a spare hour or so.)

Zeitgeist - The Movie

It's a documentary (I say that loosely, it's propoganda really) but it DOES raise some really interesting questions about Jesus and the similarities between Christianity and pagan religions before it. Nothing ground breaking, but interesting.
Then at the end there is a nutty conspiracy theory angle about 9/11 and the treasury and other aspects of the US gov't. It's good for a laugh anyway.

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by Rissask

You are such a sweet woman. I liked that. I do respect the importance you and others place on faith in your life.
I don't want anyone to think that me questioning the idea of god, means I don't respect the people who believe differently from me.

thank you. and no, i don't think you typically disrespect the people who believe differently from you.. i think you enjoy the discourse and are able to see different sides

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

I think the Pope (and the leaders of the worlds other major religions) might disagree with you. Allows too much room for self direction. Just look what happened when the church could not quash the reformation.

But you did make me want to get an aquarium.

possibly. i can't speak for the pope. i'm not catholic, i'm sure there are many parts of catholocism that i don't understand. the catholic divers have a different instructor than i do. it doesn't make their version of scuba any less of an experience for them than mine does for me.

i am fully aware the my version of diving is not for everybody. and that there are other ways to see the fish in the sea... glass bottom boats.. snorkeling.. SNUBA..

this is kinda how i see other religions. they see their fish and experience their ocean differently than i do. does it make it wrong for them? no. but does it mean they are scuba diving? also no. they can experience the same ocean and the same fish from a different perspective than i do

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by vieve

Charity, this reminded me of one of my favorite quotes:
There are only two ways to live . . . one is as though nothing is
a miracle. . . the other is as if everything is.
- Albert Einstein
__________________________________________________ ____________________

yah, i've always liked that quote!

[Daddy B]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

this analogy may come back to bite me in the butt, but it won't be the first time.

i have never been scuba diving. i have seen tropical fish in photos. i have seen tropical fish in aquariums. i have even seen tropical fish when snorkelling. i have never seen coral reefs from a depth of more than about 4 feet (i don't dive well with a snorkel, ok). i have never experienced what i would imagine to be an all-encompassing sense of wonder and freedom of swimming far below the ocean's surface...of seeing the oceanic world thru those new eyes. of feeling part of that world rather than an observer..

Don't fret, the PADI Discover Scuba Diving program takes the mystery out of scuba diving and lets you experience the underwater world for real.
Trust me, it is but swimming and breathing underwater and some people - who love it, nevertheless - have described it as watching a bunch of underwater chickens going about their daily feed.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

if i ever did go scuba diving, i would assume that there were some parameters to my new found freedom and experience in the water. i would assume that i would have some things to learn. i would assume that i would need a guide to teach me. i would assume that there were rules that i needed to abide by, rather they seemed "fair" to me or not. i would assume that my instructor wanted the best for me, and was not trying to just play favorites or deprive me of some great experience..

There are rules, but the best way is to know what you shouldn't do - and why - based on the consequences that have been borne by fact and scientific experimentation time and again.
Granted, things such as decompression theory can't be based on exact science yet because the variables are as many as each diver's body composition - although theoretical tissues substituting a wing and a prayer are an immensely safer option, in my opinion - but what we have today has been proved statistically to render the safest possible outcomes.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

like the bends.. or whatever.

Any instructor would tell you how to avoid "the bends": it can cause arterial embolism, death and, worst of all, loss of income.
A dead customer is a non-return customer.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

however, this wouldn't hamper my enjoyment of the experience. this would be part of the experience. i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming over the rules.

Why would you, the number one rule is "never, ever hold your breath", so why would you be against breathing?
Believe me, science has more than proved that should you stop breathing for more than, say six minutes your experience could cease forthwith or your brain could be damaged to the point of never being able to process what your human senses captured.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

i don't think that i would be down on the ocean floor fuming that somebody else got to see a prettier fish than mine. i would assume that their diving experience would in fact be different than mine. would it be any less fantastic for them than mine was for me? no.

No, of course. But you may be the one to see that great fish on the next dive if the fish happened to find food in your vicinity: nothing to do with fate, predestination or grandiose designs. Besides, someone's great fish is someone else's drying paint.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

would my experience be less meaningful than the next guys cuz i didn't see the same fish or have the same instructor?

Depends on what you're comparing it to? WHAT are you comparing it to?
You may have seen other fish before, fish that you know - through fact - are a more extraordinary sight, such as a rare Splendid Toad Fish: a school of the more commonly seen tarpon is an amazing sight, one that may take your breath away but a toadfish is more significant for its uniqueness. You'd have to decide on the merits of either, of course.
However, never, ever believe a dive guide who tells you watching the Great Sardine Run is a heavenly sign that you're destined for Paradise: there simply isn't any available evidence to that effect.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

if my instructor taught me to clear my mask differently than the next guy, does that make it wrong?

No, all you have to do is meet a performance requirement: do it upside down, with a leg behind your back, reading a bible... that's up to you but what you'll have to understand is that you have to decide to do the course: those students who have the greatest difficulty are those who were forced to learn scuba through external pressure or those who've been led to it under false premises by less than honest instructors who promise them an "awesome collection of colourful dives that will take you to depths that will stir your soul" while hiding/failing to communicate well-researched facts.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

if my mask is hazy and i can't see things clearly, does that mean i'm not really a diver?

No, it means you either didn't prime a new mask properly (weren't given the facts on how to do it, perhaps) or didn't know the facts as to how effectively prevent a mask from fogging (it's easy, you carry all you need right inside you, no need to seek unproven advice from outside or from some Great Diver In The Sky).

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

if i face uncertainties and stumble along the way, should i give up diving?

Barring any medical impediments, any barriers will reside purely in your mind. I'm no superman, my body works exactly like yours so if you have the right information it would be up to you to resolve your issues and achieve what I can do probably even a lot better than me. Or not, as the case may be.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

again, i've never been scuba diving. so i don't think that i can fully wrap my head around the experience. but i can try to put myself in the other person's shoes and give them the decency and respect to see why diving might be a really great thing.

Try it, investigate the truth by analysing the evidence at your disposal and see what you come up with. Simply wondering about it may be wondrous but it isn't the real thing and you'll never find out the facts that are the only thing which will ever let you know for sure.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

..even if my diving experience NEVER matched up with theirs.

I thought you said you never experienced scuba diving? In that case, you have no palpable, verifiable, quantifiable experience from where to start comparing.

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

i pretty well feel this way about my relationship with God. i will never be able to fully explain how it feels for me... what fish i see... why i learned from the instructor i learned from, etc, etc, etc. but that doesn't stop me from diving into it

With religion you're safe with an instructor who doesn't really know what he/she is talking about but knows his/her craft well enough to make you believe otherwise: scuba diving is a lot more serious in that such an instructor may lead you into otherwise avoidable life or death situations.
Learn from those who can relay the facts, not those who promise you the Earth.

[Just Lucky]

On a serious note. There is a multimedia presentation on the NY Times website concerning Putin cutting back on religious freedom in Russia.

LinkA Crackdown on Russian Protestants | New York Times Video

I strongly believe everyone should have freedom of religion, or from it if they so choose.

[playawannabe]

Originally Posted by Daddy B

Don't fret, the PADI Discover Scuba Diving program takes the mystery out of scuba diving and lets you experience the underwater world for real.
Trust me, it is but swimming and breathing underwater and some people - who love it, nevertheless - have described it as watching a bunch of underwater chickens going about their daily feed.



There are rules, but the best way is to know what you shouldn't do - and why - based on the consequences that have been borne by fact and scientific experimentation time and again.



Any instructor would tell you how to avoid "the bends": it can cause arterial embolism, death and, worst of all, loss of income.
A dead customer is a non-return customer.



Why would you, the number one rule is "never, ever hold your breath", so why would you be against breathing?
Believe me, science has more than proved that should you stop breathing for more than, say six minutes your experience could cease forthwith or your brain could be damaged to the point of never being able to process what your human senses captured.



No, of course. But you may be the one to see that great fish on the next dive if the fish happened to find food in your vicinity: nothing to do with fate, predestination or grandiose designs. Besides, someone's great fish is someone else's drying paint.



Depends on what you're comparing it to? WHAT are you comparing it to?
You may have seen other fish before, fish that you know - through fact - are a more extraordinary sight, such as a rare Splendid Toad Fish: a school of the more commonly seen tarpon is an amazing sight, one that may take your breath away but a toadfish is more significant for its uniqueness. You'd have to decide on the merits of either, of course.
However, never, ever believe a dive guide who tells you watching the Great Sardine Run is a heavenly sign that you're destined for Paradise: there simply isn't any available evidence to that effect.



No, all you have to do is meet a performance requirement: do it upside down, with a leg behind your back, reading a bible... that's up to you but what you'll have to understand is that you have to decide to do the course: those students who have the greatest difficulty are those who were forced to learn scuba through external pressure or those who've been led to it under false premises by less than honest instructors who promise them an "awesome collection of colourful dives that will take you to depths that will stir your soul" while hiding/failing to communicate well-researched facts.




No, it means you either didn't prime a new mask properly (weren't given the facts on how to do it, perhaps) or didn't know the facts as to how effectively prevent a mask from fogging (it's easy, you carry all you need right inside you, no need to seek unproven advice from outside or from some Great Diver In The Sky).



Barring any medical impediments, any barriers will reside purely in your mind. I'm no superman, my body works exactly like yours so if you have the right information it would be up to you to resolve your issues and achieve what I can do probably even a lot better than me. Or not, as the case may be.



Try it, investigate the truth by analysing the evidence at your disposal and see what you come up with. Simply wondering about it may be wondrous but it isn't the real thing and you'll never find out the facts that are the only thing which will ever let you know for sure.



I thought you said you never experienced scuba diving? In that case, you have no palpable, verifiable, quantifiable experience from where to start comparing.



With religion you're safe with an instructor who doesn't really know what he/she is talking about but is crafty enough to make you believe otherwise: scuba diving is a lot more serious in that such an instructor may lead you into otherwise avoidable life or death situations.
Learn from those who can relay the facts, not those who promise you the Earth.

Whew - take a break, Paulo! Leave it to Daddy B!