A serious question for those who do not believe in God

[FrankRN]

Before I respond to the poster, a disclaimer of my own. I in no way mean to offend anybody. Many people have very deep, firmly held religious beliefs. And while I disagree with every single one of those people, I still respect them for their opinion and conviction.

I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school from grades K-12. I was an alter boy, at the insistance of my parents, for about 6 years. I also have a degree in, among other things, European History with a focus on early Christianity. So my belief system, or lack there of, with respect to religion, is not one borne of ignorance or a lack of information.

Not only do I not believe in any sort of God, god like being, or higher power, I even take offense to terms like agnostic and atheist because in a way these terms pre-suppose the existance of God in order to define those who do not believe in God. All that is here in the universe now has in some way evloved from what has come before it ... evolution. There I said it ... EVOLUTION. And I didn't get struck by lightning.

Because I am an educated person, I recognize the need to educate my children about the world in which they live. In a way it helps them to make sense of the ridiculous things humans do to each other in the name of religion. Whether it is learning about the Crusades, how the church of England came into being (horny old king can't make nice with the pope), making some personal sense of 9/11, or what the heck is a bar mitzvah and why do you need to bring a gift.

But my childrens education is completely secular. If you ask them what their religious beliefs are, they will tell you religion is the most effective form of brain washing known to man. They will tell you how ridiculous it is for some old men in Rome who have never had sex to tell young people they should never use birth control ... married or single. Am I the only one who thinks calling birth control a sin and banning it's use is a thinly veiled way of perpetuating catholisism? More babies means more catholics, right? And that is just the beginning of what they will tell you.

How ridiculous is it for people to call themselves Catholic, profess to believe in the teachings of the Catholic church, and then abandon those teachings on a daily basis? How many catholics in the USA use birth control? Engage in premarital sex? Have children out of Wedlock? Attend church regularly? Tithe 10% of their income? I don't mean to pick on Catholics, they are just a good sized target. People of all religions do the same thing.

So the question is What do I do in a crisis such as if my child is gravely ill? I take my child to a doctor. I educate myself about her illness and the treatment for it. I make sure that all that can be done for her can be done for her. If I had to cheat, lie, or steal to make her better I would.

And if in the end what I am able to do for my child is not enough, I grieve her loss. I remember how much I loved her. I try to find solace in what a wonderful young lady she was. I find and give comfort within myself and my family. And I move forward because any other direction is destructive to ourselves and those around us.

And in the end, if I were to believe in God, a God whose believers profess is all powerful and all knowing, I would blame him. And isn't that the rub. That people the world over take solace during times of crisis, large and small, in a God who could just as easily prevented the crisis to begin with.

Go on, point to free will. Talk about Adam and Eve in the garden and the first sin and fall from grace. I have heard it all ... both from religious teachers and secula ones. It is hard for me to believe that God has punished trillions of people because some joker ate an apple. Other religions have similiar parables to account for why God lets all of this nonsense happen to his people. P-L-E-A-S-E.

This is what I teach my kids. Be polite to grown ups. Don't ever get into a van, even if there is a puppy in it. If a man raises his hand to you once, the second time is easier ... don't stick around to find out how easy. Never lend more than $5 dollars to anyone. Don't co-sign anything for anyone ... your credit rating is too important to your future. The most important thing you will ever do for youself is to get an excellent education ... no one can ever take it away from you. If you get pregnant before you graduate college you better have a plan that does not involve my raising more children.

And if you get on your knees to ask god for anything make sure you are wearing knee pads because you'll be waiting a very long time to hear back from him.

Sorry, you asked.

[Daddy B]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

And if you get on your knees to ask god for anything make sure you are wearing knee pads because you'll be waiting a very long time to hear back from him.

Exactly.

The worst time to go looking for a god is when things happen so quickly you had better look for a remedy/solution instead of giving up and trusting an omnipotent being to do the work/thinking for you.

No, the best time to investigate divinity is when you have plenty of time on your hands and can actually conduct some exhaustive research.

[Daddy B]

Originally Posted by Mamacita

I dunno. Seems like a bit of a copout. If you're a good person you'll be rewarded, but what about the bad people?

But... what about good people who are convinced there are no gods, some of them even better than good people who believe in gods - and, by religious standards?

What's to become of them? Rewarded, or damned?

What about all the despicable people who firmly, sincerely and profoundly believe in a god?
In catholicism, for instance there's always the confession quick-fix: are these ne'er do-wells more deserving of 72 virgins, pearly gates, returning as shrimp or whatever than people who know gods don't exist but have always been good by generally accepted standards?!

[UGAplaya]

Wow, some very interestig comments under this thread. One thing that I would like to caution anyone who has gone to God in prayer at their most desperate hour is this...... What as your relationship with God like BEFORE your most desperate moment? God wants us to love Him everyday. He wants a real relationship with us. Every single one of us was put on this earth with a purpose and with God built into our DNA. Without a relationship with God you will never fully understand your purpose in this life. This may sound condescending to some here, but this Sunday when Prayer Request go out at our church, I'm going to pray specifically for the people on this forum. I'm going to pray specifically that God will come into the lives of the people on this forum. For those of you who have at one time been close to God, I pray that you stop where you are and seek Him again. Happy Thursday to you guys!

[Jacko]

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

Wow, some very interestig comments under this thread. One thing that I would like to caution anyone who has gone to God in prayer at their most desperate hour is this...... What as your relationship with God like BEFORE your most desperate moment? God wants us to love Him everyday. He wants a real relationship with us. Every single one of us was put on this earth with a purpose and with God built into our DNA. Without a relationship with God you will never fully understand your purpose in this life. This may sound condescending to some here, but this Sunday when Prayer Request go out at our church, I'm going to pray specifically for the people on this forum. I'm going to pray specifically that God will come into the lives of the people on this forum. For those of you who have at one time been close to God, I pray that you stop where you are and seek Him again. Happy Thursday to you guys!

So without that love and that relationship, your god forsakes you in time of need when he might otherwise intervene to help? With the love and the relationship, he would only then give you his peace and his blessing? Its a quid pro quo kind of deal? Sounds smaller to me than a god would be.

What strikes me here is that it sounds like your notion of god seems so much smaller than the god described in the Christian bible who would be the god of the unbelievers as well as the believers, the god of the prostitutes and the sinners....a great god would not need to be "sought" in order to recieve his blessings. He would be the god of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, atheists etc. A great god would be an "all-inclusive" god...

I know you don't intend it this way, but your notion of god, as you describe it, sounds a bit elitist to me.

[sctx]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

But my childrens education is completely secular. If you ask them what their religious beliefs are, they will tell you religion is the most effective form of brain washing known to man. They will tell you how ridiculous it is for some old men in Rome who have never had sex to tell young people they should never use birth control ... married or single. Am I the only one who thinks calling birth control a sin and banning it's use is a thinly veiled way of perpetuating catholisism? More babies means more catholics, right? And that is just the beginning of what they will tell you.

.

I'm glad my parents left this very important choice up to me and didn't brainwash me into thinking religion was wrong or right across the board. I walked away from organized religion when I was 12, but if I had children, I would make sure they had the freedom to make their own decisions and I would educate them not to pass judgments upon people of faith or no faith........ but, alas, we have been much to selfish to have children, so the biggest issue in my life has been educating my dogs not to eat our cats

[roni]

Originally Posted by sctx

I'm glad my parents left this very important choice up to me and didn't brainwash me into thinking religion was wrong or right across the board. I walked away from organized religion when I was 12, but if I had children, I would make sure they had the freedom to make their own decisions and I would educate them not to pass judgments upon people of faith or no faith........ but, alas, we have been much to selfish to have children, so the biggest issue in my life has been educating my dogs not to eat our cats

Sounds like the Unitarian-Universalist way, where our son - in his religious education classes - was exposed to the world's major religions and some of its minor ones. They had people of many faiths come speak to them - Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Bahai, Christian, several flavors of neo-pagan belief. None were held above the others by the adult leaders in these discussions.

They also had non-theistic humanists there. As they became teen-agers, though, I think their discussions turned more toward sex -a common occurence in many faiths as I recall from my adolesence.

[lolabella]

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

Wow, some very interestig comments under this thread. One thing that I would like to caution anyone who has gone to God in prayer at their most desperate hour is this...... What as your relationship with God like BEFORE your most desperate moment? God wants us to love Him everyday. He wants a real relationship with us. Every single one of us was put on this earth with a purpose and with God built into our DNA. Without a relationship with God you will never fully understand your purpose in this life. This may sound condescending to some here, but this Sunday when Prayer Request go out at our church, I'm going to pray specifically for the people on this forum. I'm going to pray specifically that God will come into the lives of the people on this forum. For those of you who have at one time been close to God, I pray that you stop where you are and seek Him again. Happy Thursday to you guys!

So, god is akin to that friend that you hung out with for awhile, believed in, but over time drifted away from? And when you really, truly needed that friend’s guidance or advice, they put their hand up and said “not now, I don’t have time for you?” I thought god’s love was unconditional?

I’m really trying to understand how I invested so much time seeking out god by not only attending my own church, but visiting other churches and talking to people who were ‘born again’ to find out what that meant. And yet, I’ve still never felt his presence. Am I really a bad person that god doesn’t want me to know him? Or is my heart so blackened that I cannot accept god when he is standing right in front of me?

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by lolabella

So, god is akin to that friend that you hung out with for awhile, believed in, but over time drifted away from? And when you really, truly needed that friend’s guidance or advice, they put their hand up and said “not now, I don’t have time for you?” I thought god’s love was unconditional?

I’m really trying to understand how I invested so much time seeking out god by not only attending my own church, but visiting other churches and talking to people who were ‘born again’ to find out what that meant. And yet, I’ve still never felt his presence. Am I really a bad person that god doesn’t want me to know him? Or is my heart so blackened that I cannot accept god when he is standing right in front of me?

You know, I don't have all the answers but my experience has been this. If I'm not feeling God's presence, then I need to examine my life and how I'm living it.

[roni]

Originally Posted by UGAplaya

You know, I don't have all the answers but my experience has been this. If I'm not feeling God's presence, then I need to examine my life and how I'm living it.

I recall your fondness for good beer.

I can honestly say that once, while imbibing tequila, I felt the presence of many gods.

Was it Ben Franklin who said that beer is proof that God loves us?

That sounds more practical and easier to test than some of the more abstract theories.

[StewartG]

Mercy - first and foremost, it is GREAT to see that you do NOT need any "white knights" to charge in here and protect you from us mean and nasty "heathen" during these discussions! Bravo!!!



So, to answer your question, in my times of trouble and need... I simply don my goat fur leggings, cover myself in lamb's blood, and dance under the moon at midnight.



. . .



Kidding! Seriously, in my times of crisis and need I turn to my family first, then my friends and draw upon my inner strength. I understand prayer is second nature to you, and I understand and respect that. But keep in mind, for someone who does not believe in god, prayer during a moment of crisis wouldn't even occur to them - why waste your time praying if there is no god?

Now, that being said... I am very grateful when people pray for me or my loved ones in a time of crisis. I take no offense whatsoever, and, in fact, am always grateful that they would show that kind of concern over my plight. I don't think it will do a lick of good, of course, but I really do appreciate the friendship and support shown by those who make that offer.

Believe me, I would LOVE to be a believer and lean on the strength of god and prayer in times of crisis. If I could "force" myself to believe, I most certainly would! I mean - how WONDERFUL it must be in a time of crisis to TRULY believe that there is a higher power that will guide your loved one into heaven, or help your loved one pull through a medical crisis, or whatever the situation is. I have nothing but respect (and a good bit of envy) for those who have true faith.

As unnatural as it would be for YOU to NOT pray in a time of crisis, it would be JUST as unnatural for me TO pray in a time of crisis. I have to look inside myself and lean on my family and friends for support. What do I do in a time of crisis you ask? The answer - everything I have to, and everything I can.

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by Jacko

So without that love and that relationship, your god forsakes you in time of need when he might otherwise intervene to help? With the love and the relationship, he would only then give you his peace and his blessing? Its a quid pro quo kind of deal? Sounds smaller to me than a god would be.

What strikes me here is that it sounds like your notion of god seems so much smaller than the god described in the Christian bible who would be the god of the unbelievers as well as the believers, the god of the prostitutes and the sinners....a great god would not need to be "sought" in order to recieve his blessings. He would be the god of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, atheists etc. A great god would be an "all-inclusive" god...

I know you don't intend it this way, but your notion of god, as you describe it, sounds a bit elitist to me.

Don't get me wrong Jacko - I'm not trying to speak for God. It's just that so often we throw up "flare prayers" in our most desperate hour. I'm not saying God doesn't answer those and that he ignores them. But I guess what I'm saying is, if you're not intune with God, how do you know when he's answered them? Trust me, my idea of God and a relationship is anything but elitist. I've got enough of a sinful track record to prove it. :-)

[UGAplaya]

Originally Posted by roni

I recall your fondness for good beer.

I can honestly say that once, while imbibing tequila, I felt the presence of many gods.

Was it Ben Franklin who said that beer is proof that God loves us?

That sounds more practical and easier to test than some of the more abstract theories.

:-) Roni - I happen to love that Ben Franklin quote.

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by lolabella

So, god is akin to that friend that you hung out with for awhile, believed in, but over time drifted away from? And when you really, truly needed that friend’s guidance or advice, they put their hand up and said “not now, I don’t have time for you?” I thought god’s love was unconditional?

Like my friend Steve in high school? He was kind of a dork, but we hung around with him cuz he had a car (even if it WAS just a Chevy Chevelle.)

When the rest of us got our own cars, we kind of drifted apart (mean, I know.)

I think what UGA is saying is that if my Plymouth Duster had broken down, and I needed to get to the mall, I shouldn't EVEN bother calling upon Steve and his Chevelle, cuz I already dissed him.






(I'll bet you didn't know God's name was "Steve!")

[StewartG]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Before I respond to the poster, a disclaimer of my own. I in no way mean to offend anybody. Many people have very deep, firmly held religious beliefs. And while I disagree with every single one of those people, I still respect them for their opinion and conviction.

I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school from grades K-12. I was an alter boy, at the insistance of my parents, for about 6 years. I also have a degree in, among other things, European History with a focus on early Christianity. So my belief system, or lack there of, with respect to religion, is not one borne of ignorance or a lack of information.

Not only do I not believe in any sort of God, god like being, or higher power, I even take offense to terms like agnostic and atheist because in a way these terms pre-suppose the existance of God in order to define those who do not believe in God. All that is here in the universe now has in some way evloved from what has come before it ... evolution. There I said it ... EVOLUTION. And I didn't get struck by lightning.

Because I am an educated person, I recognize the need to educate my children about the world in which they live. In a way it helps them to make sense of the ridiculous things humans do to each other in the name of religion. Whether it is learning about the Crusades, how the church of England came into being (horny old king can't make nice with the pope), making some personal sense of 9/11, or what the heck is a bar mitzvah and why do you need to bring a gift.

But my childrens education is completely secular. If you ask them what their religious beliefs are, they will tell you religion is the most effective form of brain washing known to man. They will tell you how ridiculous it is for some old men in Rome who have never had sex to tell young people they should never use birth control ... married or single. Am I the only one who thinks calling birth control a sin and banning it's use is a thinly veiled way of perpetuating catholisism? More babies means more catholics, right? And that is just the beginning of what they will tell you.

How ridiculous is it for people to call themselves Catholic, profess to believe in the teachings of the Catholic church, and then abandon those teachings on a daily basis? How many catholics in the USA use birth control? Engage in premarital sex? Have children out of Wedlock? Attend church regularly? Tithe 10% of their income? I don't mean to pick on Catholics, they are just a good sized target. People of all religions do the same thing.

So the question is What do I do in a crisis such as if my child is gravely ill? I take my child to a doctor. I educate myself about her illness and the treatment for it. I make sure that all that can be done for her can be done for her. If I had to cheat, lie, or steal to make her better I would.

And if in the end what I am able to do for my child is not enough, I grieve her loss. I remember how much I loved her. I try to find solace in what a wonderful young lady she was. I find and give comfort within myself and my family. And I move forward because any other direction is destructive to ourselves and those around us.

And in the end, if I were to believe in God, a God whose believers profess is all powerful and all knowing, I would blame him. And isn't that the rub. That people the world over take solace during times of crisis, large and small, in a God who could just as easily prevented the crisis to begin with.

Go on, point to free will. Talk about Adam and Eve in the garden and the first sin and fall from grace. I have heard it all ... both from religious teachers and secula ones. It is hard for me to believe that God has punished trillions of people because some joker ate an apple. Other religions have similiar parables to account for why God lets all of this nonsense happen to his people. P-L-E-A-S-E.

This is what I teach my kids. Be polite to grown ups. Don't ever get into a van, even if there is a puppy in it. If a man raises his hand to you once, the second time is easier ... don't stick around to find out how easy. Never lend more than $5 dollars to anyone. Don't co-sign anything for anyone ... your credit rating is too important to your future. The most important thing you will ever do for youself is to get an excellent education ... no one can ever take it away from you. If you get pregnant before you graduate college you better have a plan that does not involve my raising more children.

And if you get on your knees to ask god for anything make sure you are wearing knee pads because you'll be waiting a very long time to hear back from him.

Sorry, you asked.

Frank, this was an excellent post, and I agree with a lot of what you say.

I would make the observation, however, that as long as it is not a "time critical" emergency (like a truck bearing down on you at 80 mph), I don't think that prayer is a waste of time for the faithful.

Sometimes I feel the need to gather my own inner strength in times of crisis. I take a deep breath and visualize my loved ones and think about how beautiful life is and how wonderful it is to be alive and be so lucky, etc. That is how I tend to gather my inner strength to deal with strife. Even if we do NOT believe in god, I would think that we could agree that prayer may serve a similar function for those of faith, perhaps.