i hate science fair projects!!!

[Buggirl]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Ok, now that I have softened you all up with a picture of my darling daughter, who by the way has all of her teeth now, I guess I can go ahead and irritate the crap out of you.

I realize your posting out of frustration and what you believe are unreasonale expectations of a 1st grader. But now that my children are in middle and high school, I have come to appreciate all of the seemingly ridiculous projects I had to go through to get them to where they are now. I will say that I resented having to go through primary school for the second and third times. I often felt what was asked of the kids was out of control and almost impossible for them to accomplish on their own.

But now I have ended up with 6th and 10th graders who almost never have to ask me for help with their home work, My 10th grader is an A/B student and she does it with very little help from me (now). She goes to one of the top 5 high schools in Massachusetts and the expectations are very high. Some of the projects they have to do are quite advanced especially in math and science. Yet she does well on her own and balances her work load with a full schedule of sports.

When I became frustrated and complained about the workload they were getting, they told me to relax. It is not about being perfect, or getting it right, or even understanding the science. All of the kids were praised for whatever they brought in. All of the projects got proudly displayed. Grades are no given out in the primary grades.

What they wanted was to get the kids used to managing and completing a project. No one expects a 1st grader to fully understand what a hypothesis is or the science behind chalk melting. What is important is that they begin to understand that there are steps to follow and a certain way to approach a problem. And if they can get that, then high school chemistry and physics will be a breeze.

And I learned early on to put a smile on my face and make it fun because it is about my childs future ... it is already too late for me.

OK, Frank- I hear what you're saying and I totally agree. What I tend to take exception to is when a child is forced onto a project like this one, and doesn't have any say in what they study. I think that sends the wrong message- at least let the child try to pick out a subject that interests them. Otherwise I fear that the project becomes all about the work and may foster a dislike of science (something very near and dear to my heart) in the child. I think it all becomes so much more meaningful if the child is involved from start to finish. That way they come up with the project and carry it out- no help from mom and dad. Who cares if there are graphs or if you actually answered the question properly? It is about the process, not the finished (perfect) project. Does that make sense? I haven't had my coffee, yet

And don't tell me there's a point to writing out 1000 numbers. That's busy work- and you know it

[TAPPY]

My kiddo did one on growing crystals (I found it on the web) - I dont remember how to do it. But it was easy and fun for her.

And yes I had to "help" do my share of projects over the years, building a mini bridge out of sticks was my least favorite !

[pamplemoose77]

just to clarify, i do like science.. and my kids get plenty of science-y time at home.

when my oldest was 21 months, she could toddle around my grandfather's rock garden and point out the schist, granite, shale, sandstone, and metamorphic rocks. she loves to read about animals, and prefers nonfiction books to fiction.

they routinely make their own perfumes, lotions, and recipes... they play outside and conduct their own experiments with bugs and rocks and leaves and whatnot.

out of 6 parent/grandparents on my side of the family, only 1 did not have a science related degree.

i understand the concept behind introducing them to the scientific process and the steps that have to be followed.. but honestly, i'm pretty dang sure that even if they NEVER had to do a science fair project that they would be just fine in the science/school arena.

i never once did a sci-fair project, yet i graduated valedictorian of my high school.. went to university on a full scholarship that also paid for my books, housing, and a 1k per semester stipend on top of that. if it weren't for 2 art classes and a history class, i would have graduated with a 4.0

anyhow, i don't even know why i'm bothering to type all this out.. but somehow felt the need to clarify that my complaining was due more to the forced nature of the project and not the actual concept of experimenting/science/whatever



i should probably just drink more coffee and shut up.
btw, the coffee dissolved the chalk .4 grams in 2 hours.. in case you were wondering...

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by BonnyW

It won't dry out...ever.
If you want to do a cool experiment, try adding things like pickle juice, water, lemon juice, or something, etc...and time how long it takes to dissolve.
I enjoy watch it bubble with the pickle juice (vinegar) but then again, I am a science geek.

well after baking and drying overnight, it was at least dry enough to show some loss on the scale, so that's good enough for me!

the initial fizzing in the coffee, cola, and vinegar was fun, but after that it was just a piece of chalk sitting in liquid for 2 hours

we should have structured the experiment differently, but oh well. almost done now!

[JoanieBlon]

This thread brings to mind a good CSI episode I watched lately. A bigamist got caught because he helped a child in one of his two families, both of whom lived in Las Vegas, build an erupting volcano for a science fair project. The guy was VERY unhandy, but watched the wife in marriage #1 help out the daughter do the volcano project. He took mental notes and assisted the child in family #2 do the same project. If I recall correctly, the CSIs found the "eruption" ingrediants and wife #1 finally figured out why hubby was "away on business" so much.

[Buggirl]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

just to clarify, i do like science.. and my kids get plenty of science-y time at home.

when my oldest was 21 months, she could toddle around my grandfather's rock garden and point out the schist, granite, shale, sandstone, and metamorphic rocks. she loves to read about animals, and prefers nonfiction books to fiction.

they routinely make their own perfumes, lotions, and recipes... they play outside and conduct their own experiments with bugs and rocks and leaves and whatnot.

out of 6 parent/grandparents on my side of the family, only 1 did not have a science related degree.

i understand the concept behind introducing them to the scientific process and the steps that have to be followed.. but honestly, i'm pretty dang sure that even if they NEVER had to do a science fair project that they would be just fine in the science/school arena.

i never once did a sci-fair project, yet i graduated valedictorian of my high school.. went to university on a full scholarship that also paid for my books, housing, and a 1k per semester stipend on top of that. if it weren't for 2 art classes and a history class, i would have graduated with a 4.0

anyhow, i don't even know why i'm bothering to type all this out.. but somehow felt the need to clarify that my complaining was due more to the forced nature of the project and not the actual concept of experimenting/science/whatever



i should probably just drink more coffee and shut up.
btw, the coffee dissolved the chalk .4 grams in 2 hours.. in case you were wondering...

I understood your complaint- I tried to explain it, too- but I'm terrible at getting my point across To me- forcing a project onto a child takes half the fun out of science. The discovery process of coming up with a good question to study is probably the most fun part.....and it makes the rest of the project fun- not just work. Ok, done now. Have a great day, Charity

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by Buggirl

I understood your complaint- I tried to explain it, too- but I'm terrible at getting my point across To me- forcing a project onto a child takes half the fun out of science. The discovery process of coming up with a good question to study is probably the most fun part.....and it makes the rest of the project fun- not just work. Ok, done now. Have a great day, Charity

nah, you did a good job... i just wanted to put in more than my 2 cents still

the first idea for the experiment would have been a lot more fun.. and it was 100% isabel's idea! they're my pets, i can hide food from them if i want to!

[jflattracker]

I hear ya Charity! I hated the science fair! By the time Shane got to do them they weren't giving away ribbons and awards for them! Which made the quality (parent help) go down some! We did at least get to pick what we did though! I'm glad we don't have those anymore!

Have a great day!

[FrankRN]

Honestly, it is not that I don't understand (and agree) with where you guys are coming from ... I do. I have been there ... twice. And I have degrees in Electrical Engineering, Nursing, and European history (of all things). So I understand that science matters ... more now than ever.

I just wanted to point out that my experiences with my own children at that age, similair to what you describe, led me to the realization that it is about teaching the kids early about the process. The earlier they become familair with and are able to utilize the "scientific process" the better they will do in math and science in the long run. Crap, when I was in the 1st grade we did not even have science class of any sort.

I know it is frustrating as hell because we all want our kids to have the best project, or the correct answers, or to understand what is going on. But it is a mistake to "sweat" those aspects of the assignment. A 1st grader would have to be a prodigy to understand the chemical or physical properties of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) or chalk. I bet most parents could not talk inteligently about its molecular bonds. So why would a 1st grader?

I think your teacher was correct to just let your young one have at it and have fun. I found that the less I helped my kids at that stage, the better they performed on the next project.

In regards to busy work, I WISH they gave my kids such busy work. Math has become way too conceptualized in the primary grades. Teachers are more concerned with alternate methods and understanding than practical skills. My kids don't even know their multiplication tables because that method of teaching has largely been abandoned. They now call the way I learned math the "historical method".

When I was in 3rd grade, we had a nun who began each day with a verbal math problem. She would just spew something like 9 divided by 3 times 6 plus 2 divided by 2 plus minus 1 and find the square root of that answer. First one to come up with the answer ... no pen or paper ... had no home work that night. And I can still do complicated math in my head because of that.

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by FrankRN

I know it is frustrating as hell because we all want our kids to have the best project, or the correct answers, or to understand what is going on. But it is a mistake to "sweat" those aspects of the assignment.

I think your teacher was correct to just let your young one have at it and have fun. I found that the less I helped my kids at that stage, the better they performed on the next project.

i should definitely just let this go, but i'm not.

i don't think you were actually getting the point of my original post. i truly, honestly, sincerely couldn't care less if her project is the best. i don't even think there are awards. the only thing i was sweating was the fact that the entire experiment hinged on chalk drying, and it was not drying. if the chalk did not dry out enough to weigh it to figure out the amount it dissolved, the whole thing was shot to hell. i was fully prepared to let her take deductions on not bringing in the results today, but it was dry enough this morning, so it didn't come to that.

the teacher actually has shown nooooooooooooooooooo desire to let my young one have at it and have fun. the teacher instructed her to change her experiment into one she didn't care about. i'm not anti-teacher.. my parents were both teachers and i have taught in the past as well. her teacher's fine...

but *I* am the one that encourages her scientific play exploration.. it's nothing she gets at school. i'm the one that helps her figure out what ingredients might make her lotion more moisturizing.. i'm the one who helps her bake cakes and explains that without eggs and baking soda or powder it won't rise.. i'm the one who lets her tromp thru the house covered in mud because she was watching snails in the backyard and wants to know what they eat.

so, yah... i shouldn't let it bother me in the least that my post was misunderstood, but when i do everything in my power to let my kids just BE and learn at their own pace and according to their own interests, it does get under my skin a wee bit

[SunKneeMarie]

I guess another difference in Frank's kids' experience and this particular project, in addition to there being no "have fun" instruction (really? your kids got that instruction? lucky kids) is that it IS being graded, so there are expectations, I assume outlined on a rubric. Ryan shuffled through projects that at the time I thought were completely bogus. In hindsight, I can see how some were worthwhile... but there were others that I still feel were not beneficial in the least, whether because the instruction was lousy or the material made no sense or whatever. The best I could do was to let him do as much as he could on his own, then stepped in if he got overwhelmed or frustrated to help him get back on track.

And I tried REALLY hard not to curse the teacher while I was doing it.

[FrankRN]

Originally Posted by SunKneeMarie

I guess another difference in Frank's kids' experience and this particular project, in addition to there being no "have fun" instruction (really? your kids got that instruction? lucky kids) is that it IS being graded, so there are expectations, I assume outlined on a rubric. Ryan shuffled through projects that at the time I thought were completely bogus. In hindsight, I can see how some were worthwhile... but there were others that I still feel were not beneficial in the least, whether because the instruction was lousy or the material made no sense or whatever. The best I could do was to let him do as much as he could on his own, then stepped in if he got overwhelmed or frustrated to help him get back on track.

And I tried REALLY hard not to curse the teacher while I was doing it.

WOW! Your school system operates a lot different than ours does. Our kids get report cards in which they are rated in different areas as either "excels", "progress satisfactory" and "continues to improve". Notice how positive all three sound. Letter (or percentage) grades are NEVER given on anything until about the 5th grade which is neccesary to transition them to the middle school. It is all about encouraging the kids instead of comparing them to others or saying "you're not up to snuff".

And our teachers use rubic's too ... but not in the 1st grade. They do not start introducing those until the middle of the fourth grade.

Even when I was in the 1st grade we did not get letter or percentage based grades. Must be a Massachusetts thing.

[mastequilapf]

Originally Posted by pamplemoose77

yes, that one is fun! although our school did it differently.. they people all mailed it back to the school, so i didn't get to see any of it until the project was done and she brought it home...

but some FANTASTIC peeps on this board made isabel's a roaring success!

Glad to hear it went so well! It was an honor having stan here!

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by SunKneeMarie

I guess another difference in Frank's kids' experience and this particular project, in addition to there being no "have fun" instruction (really? your kids got that instruction? lucky kids) is that it IS being graded, so there are expectations, I assume outlined on a rubric.

boy is there a rubric...

1. I brought my project to school on the due date, May 12th /10 pts
2. My work was neat and organized /10 pts
3. My work shows all parts of the scientific method /30 pts
-Question /4pts
-Research /4pts
-Hypothesis /4pts
-Procedures /4pts
-Materials /4pts
-Graph /3pts
-Result /3pts
-Conclusion /4pts
4. I explained my sceince project with knowledge about how it works /20pts
5. I have included a Bible verse /10 pts
**she goes to a christian school, do NOT freak out, i repeat, do NOT freak out**
6. I turned in a completed journal. /20 pts


so, as you can see... this was not a simple matter of choosing to build a volcano or fake dinosaur bone. nor could my 1st grader legitimately complete the whole project on her own

i just got off the phone with one of the moms who was also cursing the project after staying up crazy late last night working on her chart as well

[pamplemoose77]

Originally Posted by mastequilapf

Glad to hear it went so well! It was an honor having stan here!

thank you again!