What's going on around here? - Page 4

Daddy B · 05-07-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by xunshyne

What is the point of having a "General Off-Topic Stuff" thread if we can't use it? Everyone's entitled to their opinion. What works for one person may not work for another, and vice-versa. Why should one person get to dictate or presume what another person thinks/feels/expresses? SO totalitarian!

Totalitarian?!

Just look at the stuff I and many others get away with!

You ain't seen totalitarian, yet...

Just read those polite, academic number-crunchers on the US presidential elections thread: handbags at ten paces, if ever there was such a duel!

Besides, Heather has stated above that no posts or threads were deleted: some were locked, indeed but the content is still there for anyone who'd care to read it.

Why would Heather or any other moderators lie about deleting posts/threads, anyawy??!!

Just Lucky · 05-07-2008

I reckon Heather and the other moderators here are mighty nice and good people.

We owe them some respect and we should treat them as we would want to be treated.

roni · 05-07-2008

Now it has evolved to group practice

StewartG · 05-07-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

Are you kidding me!!!! How dare you say it was a sham!!! Oh, I see you can read my mind now huh? I wasn't trying to thrust anything down anyone's throat and I think it is extremely rude of you to say so. I WAS genuinely interested in how people would answer my question, it has been something I had wondered about for a while. I'm sorry the thread went in a bad direction... but that wasn't my fault.

I thought a "sham" was something that went on a pillow?

Just Lucky · 05-07-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddy B

Totalitarian?!

Just look at the stuff I and many others get away with!

You ain't seen totalitarian, yet...

Ya but, Carlo Rossi! There should be limits.

Daddy B · 05-07-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

Are you kidding me!!!! How dare you say it was a sham!!! Oh, I see you can read my mind now huh? I wasn't trying to thrust anything down anyone's throat and I think it is extremely rude of you to say so. I WAS genuinely interested in how people would answer my question, it has been something I had wondered about for a while. I'm sorry the thread went in a bad direction... but that wasn't my fault.

You say potatoe, I say potato
For we know we need each other so we
Better call the calling off off,
Let's call the whole thing off.

And that's the beauty of playa.info.

**tommy** · 05-07-2008

Just because I am out of practice and this thread adds ZERO value to Playa.info......

If you have a problem with it feel free to send a PM to the Admin.

Now everyone go have a shot!!

**Anna** · 05-08-2008

OK, I've been staring at the screen for quite a while now to muster up the energy to deal with all this.

I'm going to open up this thread temporarily in order to allow for responses, but then I'll close it again. Why? Because, basically it has all been said and I just wanted to add some things, and again, if you do have a problem with our moderating, please send a PM to any of the moderators. Or at the very least, give real examples of what was moderated, not only a general whine about 'why can't I say what I want'. That whine is sometimes followed by, 'others get away with murder', again without examples. Please remember that while you are problably active in a couple of threads, we have the whole forum to keep an eye on, and it's impossible to read all posts in all threads in all sub-forums. If you have an issue or a problem with someone's posts, please LET US KNOW, instead of bringing it up as a vague reference weeks later.

First off, Stewart makes some excellent points about free speech and some good analogies. It is true that sometimes we have a reason to moderate something due to history or even reasons on a behind-the-scene level that we cannot/will not talk about on a public forum. We sometimes have PM conversations with people that lead us to do moderate something, but we will not share private PMs with others, so sometimes you just have to believe that we don't do things to be spiteful, but there's a reason for it.

It is a common misconception that everyone is entitled to free speech everywhere. That is not the case. In the US you have much more generous laws about free speech than in many other countries, but even there you're not allowed to walk into anyone's home or business and say whatever you want. In many other countries there is indeed free speech but with certain restrictions, such as you are not allowed to publish child pornography or blatant hate/lies regarding race or religion. For example, it is against the law to claim that the holocaust didn't happen or to tell people to go out and kill black people, but it is not against the law to say that Chrisitanity is the best religion.

Unfortunately, laws and rules are necessary in this world, in countries and on internet sites. You will find that ALL forums online have rules, and most of them include asking people to behave. Again, unfortunately some people don't. Some people spend hours of their time trying to stir things up, provoke, cause upset feelings or just be bullies. Sad, I know, but nonetheless true. It's not uncommon for people to hide behind an internet persona to say things they would never say in real life, or be someone they're not. We have to try to protect ourselves from this kind of behavior for three reasons: 1. it doesn't add any value to this site and the forum, but just drags it down and scares nice people off; 2. it seriously hurts people; and 3. it takes a LOT of time to deal with it all and our moderators are all nice people who really don't need the headache.

Now, this is an internet business and we are not IN a country, so we have to make some rules of our own. Often when someone gets moderated, people get upset, talk about dictatorship and totalitarian behavior, and call for rules and warnings. OK, first off, THERE ARE RULES!!! You can read them here and here. Do not blame us if you haven't read the rules. Here's something I've learnt during years of running an internet site and dealing with written information (and this an insight to the cynical Anna): you can give people all the information in the world, but it doesn' mean they'll read it, and if they read it, it doesn't mean they'll understand it. And we do warn people, sometimes publicly on the thread, sometimes privately in a PM.

OK, let's talk about the thread at hand, the religion thread that got closed. You can find it here. Some people are upset that was closed, but I don't get it. This thread went on for 65, yes 65, pages, so I don't understands how anyone can feel that they weren't give the chance to say their thing. The thread went off topic after page 3. With off topic we mean off topic from the original post. For 62 pages people were debating the existence of god, hell and other intangible religious aspects. It was closed at one point when it started to go off topic but then re-opened when the interest for it was high and people promised to behave. Evenso, it kept us moderators at our toes. When the proselytizing had gone on for 65 pages, and, surprise surprise, nobody had been converted in either direction and, since everything pretty much had been said, it started to take a sour tone, the thread was deemed best closed.

If anyone has a problem with that, please send me a PM.

**Anna** · 05-08-2008

Oh, and I'd like to add something very important.

We NEVER edit, moderate, delete or close threads because of people's opinions. Only because of the WAY those opinions were presented. If a poster is rude or resort to namecalling, we step in. Often we prefer to close a thread rather than single someone out and/or detail-edit posts.

Jacko · 05-08-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by xunshyne

Yeah that makes sense, and I suppose if the owner/employees of the coffee shop thought someone was talking about innapropriate subject matter, they could give them a warning asking them NOT to talk about it. That would be my first thought. I believe everyone deserves a second chance. We all make mistakes, the key is to learn from them and not repeat them.
And Stew, I dig you too.

Is all this called "lurking the locked"?

BTW...Happy Belated Birthday

**james** · 05-08-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Just saw Heather's post in another thread asking not to start threads like this if unsatisfied with certain aspects of thread moderation. Apologies to all that I did not see that post earlier. Sorry I can't delete the thread myself.

actually it is stated in the sign-up agreement and the "Please Read" announcement also, so it shouldn't be news to anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Difficult to do if you don't know who deleted a post or why. Might be a nice courtesy to be contacted if a post is deleted with an explanation. Would certainly help prevent such future transgressions.

Send it to any admin or mod. If something is deleted, like your recent post, which you reposted anyway, just look at the rules. You should see why right there. For example, this very thread does not adhere to the following request we make in the announcement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by announcement

If you have any questions about any moderation practices or why something was moderated, contact me directly in a PM, do not start a thread about it, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankRN

Won't bother with a PM ... don't want to clutter up anyones trash bin.

Well, that's like saying we won't take what you write us into consideration.

If you would like to continue this conversation, please send me a PM.

Closing this one.

**Bumper** · 05-08-2008

I drafted this yesterday, but by the time I had it ready to enter, the thread had been closed, which I certainly didn't disagree with. I could have re-opened it to throw in my two cents worth, but decided that wouldn't have added anything of value to the discussion. However, now that Anna has so eloquently chosen to open the issue for further comment, I'll throw it in. I only wish I could express my feelings and opinions as well as she already has, but I won't even try, so here it is.

Gotta’ say, Frank, when I read your post, I went looking for posts of yours that had been deleted. Couldn’t find any, so if you’d care to give me idea of where to search, I’d be interested to have a look. As for threads that have been locked, yep, there’s been a couple. Hardly the epidemic you seem to be indicating is taking place. And really, the second was only an attempted opening of the can of worms the first had become. And guess what? If the same thing comes back six times, I can pretty much guarantee it will get zapped six times. Some folks are just slow learners. Maybe next time I’ll get to kill it before Heather has to deal with it. I wouldn’t hesitate. I can’t say as I’m aware of any locked threads where I felt the action was inappropriate. I’d refer you to a couple of posts of mine in the “Somebody get the keys from Heather, she's got the best threads locked up.” to give you my “take” on the subject. I completely agree with Heather’s decision in both cases.

I moderate, but I’ll be the first to say I’m not very good at it. I just get bored too easily. I will frequently see a thread that’s going in an obvious direction, either because of the subject matter, or the participants. If that direction doesn’t interest me, I tend to tune it out, and not keep as close tabs on it as I probably should. Also, as hard as it is to believe, the moderators do have a life away from the PlayaInfo forum, so things can go on for quite some time without one of us seeing them. I have locked some threads, and deleted some posts, but not many. Not for fear of the flak or negative feedback that might generate - none of you scare me any - but because of inattentiveness or absence. There have been a few instances where I would have been pleased to take action, but was deprived of the opportunity because I showed up a day late and a buck short. I don’t think you’ll find any of the moderators to be iron-fisted, or at least I don’t. I think we all try to be as even-handed as we can be, given our individual personalities and philosophies, and approaches to the process. But we are only human, after all, with mortal failings. I greatly respect Heather’s efforts, and those of all the moderators. I feel that for the most part, they do an excellent and largely thankless job. And it's not just in the policeman's role either. There are many instances every day where helpful advice is offered, or threads are moved to a more appropriate area where they may be better dealt with, or duplicate threads combined or deleted to remove clutter, or many other services performed. I guess I’ll just have to be increasingly attentive in the future, pay more attention, and take more opportunities to be ruthless and fierce in my moderation style. Hey, this could be fun. A side of me even I haven’t seen.

**Anna** · 05-08-2008

Frank,
I'm sorry our replies on this seem to jump all over you. I know you didn't mean anything malicious with posting this thread, and we sure appreciate you, your posts and your posting style around here, so don't take all this too personally. We just took this thread as an opportunity to reiterate the rules of the forum, as many (especially long term) posters have seemed to forgotten them.

And on a personal note, I do take offense on being called totalitarian. Just read some of the over one million posts on this forum, and you'll see that we are very cool and accepting around here. Please know that not everyone that reads this forum knows everything that's going on behind the doors...

05-08-2008	#53 (permalink)
Anna top babe admin Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: after 10 wonderful years in Playa, now back in Sweden Posts: 3,335	OK, I've been staring at the screen for quite a while now to muster up the energy to deal with all this. I'm going to open up this thread temporarily in order to allow for responses, but then I'll close it again. Why? Because, basically it has all been said and I just wanted to add some things, and again, if you do have a problem with our moderating, please send a PM to any of the moderators. Or at the very least, give real examples of what was moderated, not only a general whine about 'why can't I say what I want'. That whine is sometimes followed by, 'others get away with murder', again without examples. Please remember that while you are problably active in a couple of threads, we have the whole forum to keep an eye on, and it's impossible to read all posts in all threads in all sub-forums. If you have an issue or a problem with someone's posts, please LET US KNOW, instead of bringing it up as a vague reference weeks later. First off, Stewart makes some excellent points about free speech and some good analogies. It is true that sometimes we have a reason to moderate something due to history or even reasons on a behind-the-scene level that we cannot/will not talk about on a public forum. We sometimes have PM conversations with people that lead us to do moderate something, but we will not share private PMs with others, so sometimes you just have to believe that we don't do things to be spiteful, but there's a reason for it. It is a common misconception that everyone is entitled to free speech everywhere. That is not the case. In the US you have much more generous laws about free speech than in many other countries, but even there you're not allowed to walk into anyone's home or business and say whatever you want. In many other countries there is indeed free speech but with certain restrictions, such as you are not allowed to publish child pornography or blatant hate/lies regarding race or religion. For example, it is against the law to claim that the holocaust didn't happen or to tell people to go out and kill black people, but it is not against the law to say that Chrisitanity is the best religion. Unfortunately, laws and rules are necessary in this world, in countries and on internet sites. You will find that ALL forums online have rules, and most of them include asking people to behave. Again, unfortunately some people don't. Some people spend hours of their time trying to stir things up, provoke, cause upset feelings or just be bullies. Sad, I know, but nonetheless true. It's not uncommon for people to hide behind an internet persona to say things they would never say in real life, or be someone they're not. We have to try to protect ourselves from this kind of behavior for three reasons: 1. it doesn't add any value to this site and the forum, but just drags it down and scares nice people off; 2. it seriously hurts people; and 3. it takes a LOT of time to deal with it all and our moderators are all nice people who really don't need the headache. Now, this is an internet business and we are not IN a country, so we have to make some rules of our own. Often when someone gets moderated, people get upset, talk about dictatorship and totalitarian behavior, and call for rules and warnings. OK, first off, THERE ARE RULES!!! You can read them here and here. Do not blame us if you haven't read the rules. Here's something I've learnt during years of running an internet site and dealing with written information (and this an insight to the cynical Anna): you can give people all the information in the world, but it doesn' mean they'll read it, and if they read it, it doesn't mean they'll understand it. And we do warn people, sometimes publicly on the thread, sometimes privately in a PM. OK, let's talk about the thread at hand, the religion thread that got closed. You can find it here. Some people are upset that was closed, but I don't get it. This thread went on for 65, *yes 65,* pages, so I don't understands how anyone can feel that they weren't give the chance to say their thing. The thread went off topic after page 3. With off topic we mean off topic from the original post. For 62 pages people were debating the existence of god, hell and other intangible religious aspects. It was closed at one point when it started to go off topic but then re-opened when the interest for it was high and people promised to behave. Evenso, it kept us moderators at our toes. When the proselytizing had gone on for 65 pages, and, surprise surprise, nobody had been converted in either direction and, since everything pretty much had been said, it started to take a sour tone, the thread was deemed best closed. If anyone has a problem with that, please send me a PM. __________________ ------------------------------ Founder and owner of Playa.info

05-08-2008	#57 (permalink)
Bumper Class Clown Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 11,409	I drafted this yesterday, but by the time I had it ready to enter, the thread had been closed, which I certainly didn't disagree with. I could have re-opened it to throw in my two cents worth, but decided that wouldn't have added anything of value to the discussion. However, now that Anna has so eloquently chosen to open the issue for further comment, I'll throw it in. I only wish I could express my feelings and opinions as well as she already has, but I won't even try, so here it is. Gotta’ say, Frank, when I read your post, I went looking for posts of yours that had been deleted. Couldn’t find any, so if you’d care to give me idea of where to search, I’d be interested to have a look. As for threads that have been locked, yep, there’s been a couple. Hardly the epidemic you seem to be indicating is taking place. And really, the second was only an attempted opening of the can of worms the first had become. And guess what? If the same thing comes back six times, I can pretty much guarantee it will get zapped six times. Some folks are just slow learners. Maybe next time I’ll get to kill it before Heather has to deal with it. I wouldn’t hesitate. I can’t say as I’m aware of any locked threads where I felt the action was inappropriate. I’d refer you to a couple of posts of mine in the “Somebody get the keys from Heather, she's got the best threads locked up.” to give you my “take” on the subject. I completely agree with Heather’s decision in both cases. I moderate, but I’ll be the first to say I’m not very good at it. I just get bored too easily. I will frequently see a thread that’s going in an obvious direction, either because of the subject matter, or the participants. If that direction doesn’t interest me, I tend to tune it out, and not keep as close tabs on it as I probably should. Also, as hard as it is to believe, the moderators do have a life away from the PlayaInfo forum, so things can go on for quite some time without one of us seeing them. I have locked some threads, and deleted some posts, but not many. Not for fear of the flak or negative feedback that might generate - none of you scare me any - but because of inattentiveness or absence. There have been a few instances where I would have been pleased to take action, but was deprived of the opportunity because I showed up a day late and a buck short. I don’t think you’ll find any of the moderators to be iron-fisted, or at least I don’t. I think we all try to be as even-handed as we can be, given our individual personalities and philosophies, and approaches to the process. But we are only human, after all, with mortal failings. I greatly respect Heather’s efforts, and those of all the moderators. I feel that for the most part, they do an excellent and largely thankless job. And it's not just in the policeman's role either. There are many instances every day where helpful advice is offered, or threads are moved to a more appropriate area where they may be better dealt with, or duplicate threads combined or deleted to remove clutter, or many other services performed. I guess I’ll just have to be increasingly attentive in the future, pay more attention, and take more opportunities to be ruthless and fierce in my moderation style. Hey, this could be fun. A side of me even I haven’t seen. __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a pristine, well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting "Holy Shit...what a ride!!"

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05-07-2008	#47 (permalink)
Just Lucky link king Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Out On the Edge. Posts: 7,531	I reckon Heather and the other moderators here are mighty nice and good people. We owe them some respect and we should treat them as we would want to be treated.

05-07-2008	#48 (permalink)
roni Happy Curmudgeon Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 33,019	Now it has evolved to group practice

05-07-2008	#52 (permalink)
tommy Rastaman Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin Tx Posts: 12,757 Blog Entries: 5	Just because I am out of practice and this thread adds ZERO value to Playa.info...... If you have a problem with it feel free to send a PM to the Admin. Now everyone go have a shot!!

05-08-2008	#54 (permalink)
Anna top babe admin Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: after 10 wonderful years in Playa, now back in Sweden Posts: 3,335	Oh, and I'd like to add something very important. We NEVER edit, moderate, delete or close threads because of people's opinions. Only because of the WAY those opinions were presented. If a poster is rude or resort to namecalling, we step in. Often we prefer to close a thread rather than single someone out and/or detail-edit posts.

05-08-2008	#58 (permalink)
Anna top babe admin Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: after 10 wonderful years in Playa, now back in Sweden Posts: 3,335	Frank, I'm sorry our replies on this seem to jump all over you. I know you didn't mean anything malicious with posting this thread, and we sure appreciate you, your posts and your posting style around here, so don't take all this too personally. We just took this thread as an opportunity to reiterate the rules of the forum, as many (especially long term) posters have seemed to forgotten them. And on a personal note, I do take offense on being called totalitarian. Just read some of the over one million posts on this forum, and you'll see that we are very cool and accepting around here. Please know that not everyone that reads this forum knows everything that's going on behind the doors...