Presidential Campaign: 2012

[ryberg]

Well, I appreciate a conservative response, at least!

I mean, it's more than I can say for DH, who does seem to be on quite a bit and who was one of the highest-profile conservative critics of health care legislation in the ways I've described during that period, if I remember correctly, and he's already responded here on something else, but can't seem to come up with anything on this point. So that's something.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by StephenB

Huge difference between the imperfect Ryan budget proposal and the health care bill. For one thing, we actually KNOW what's in Ryan's proposal. For another, we now have balance and a series of checks and balances in place....no more automatic Obama rubber stamp. The voters took care of that. That was a direct result of rammed though legislation....they spoke very loudly about it.

None of that really addresses the double standard I'm talking about, though, in terms of negative conservative reaction. I mean no matter how you slice it, Dems are elected and follow through on their campaign pledge to pass health care, and conservatives say it's unpopular at the time and that therefore Dems are not listening to the voice of the American people and are being undemocratic, etc. But when the GOP by contrast keeps up with their similarly unpopular moves on Medicare, suddenly that is dealing honestly with the American people, living up to their responsibilities to the voters who sent them there, and providing leadership -- all about as far from ignoring the will of the American people and being undemocratic as you can get.

Originally Posted by StephenB

Bury your head in the sand and deny it.

Well, ditto. Sounds like your BS meter, or whatever you call it, may not work both ways or something.

[gingele]

Originally Posted by horizon200

OK, fairly good responses...I open the question to everyone....who would you vote for FROM THE OPPOSITE PARTY?

I voted for a Republican once.

[Mr Cancun]

Serious question, if Obamacare is so good, why so may exemptions?
It should be for everyone, no exception

[roni]

CBO: Defunding healthcare law could end Medicare drug benefits - The Hill's Healthwatch

CBO: Defunding healthcare law could end drug benefits
By Sam Baker - 05/26/11 05:14 PM ET

Permanently defunding the healthcare reform law could lead to the end of Medicare coverage for prescription drugs, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Although the Medicare drug benefit predates healthcare reform, the new law made changes to the program — most notably eliminating the so-called “doughnut hole,” in which seniors must pay for their drugs out of pocket.

If the new healthcare law is defunded, the changes to the prescription drug program could not be implemented and Medicare would be unable to offer the benefit, CBO said.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Mr Cancun

You should have went, she looked amazing in her Ralph Lauren dress & glittering necklace

Attachment 11198

Looks like that necklace may run for around $2,500.

For those keeping score at home, that would be about half of 1% of Gringrich's Tiffany's bill.

Of course, she was hosting an event in honor of the queen, so...

[user 6507]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Well, I appreciate a conservative response, at least!

I mean, it's more than I can say for DH, who does seem to be on quite a bit and who was one of the highest-profile conservative critics of health care legislation in the ways I've described during that period, if I remember correctly, and he's already responded here on something else, but can't seem to come up with anything on this point. So that's something.

Anyways...

None of that really addresses the double standard I'm talking about, though, in terms of negative conservative reaction. I mean no matter how you slice it, Dems are elected and follow through on their campaign pledge to pass health care, and conservatives say it's unpopular at the time and that therefore Dems are not listening to the voice of the American people and are being undemocratic, etc. But when the GOP by contrast keeps up with their similarly unpopular moves on Medicare, suddenly that is dealing honestly with the American people, living up to their responsibilities to the voters who sent them there, and providing leadership -- all about as far from ignoring the will of the American people and being undemocratic as you can get.

Well, ditto. Sounds like your BS meter, or whatever you call it, may not work both ways or something.

Whatever Ryberg...there was a REASON your party was spanked and you know what it is. Right or wrong, popular or unpopular, there will not be the back door deals that occurred constantly with Pelosi/Reid/Obama.

You have never answered a straight question in your life, so why don't you try it now? Why did you guys lose so much during the last go round?

Can you even attempt to answer that without writing a book that only you understand? I have already chalked this up as a waste of valuable beer drinking time. Already broke my cardinal rule of responding to your spin.....

[melliedee]

Republicans supporting the Ryan plan will have to do the same as Democrats supporting the healthcare plan: if they believe in the legislation they should stand behind it, voter retaliation be damned. If they disagree with it, they can run from it regardless of inter party opposition (what I believe Ginrich was trying to do before he was smacked down).

[user 6507]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Republicans supporting the Ryan plan will have to do the same as Democrats supporting the healthcare plan: if they believe in the legislation they should stand behind it, voter retaliation be damned. If they disagree with it, they can run from it regardless of inter party opposition (what I believe Ginrich was trying to do before he was smacked down).

I'm good with that. Gingrich needed to be smacked down for other reasons too.

[ryberg]

I don't think it's hard to see why Dems did not win big again in Nov 2010: the tendency is for voters to swing back the other way in mid-term elections, right? And it was a big ol' victory for Dems in Nov 2008, so that makes sense.

The tendency is also for oversimplification and for immediate gratification: people think it should all be so simple and problems that took years if not decades to create can be solved with just this or that basic move, you know, in just a year or two. When they're not, they become frustrated and switch. (shrug)

This again was not what I was asking about -- the rather glaring double standard in evidence as the GOP suddenly applauds and defends the approach they railed against only a short while ago -- but I can understand if conservatives have trouble explaining that.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by ryberg

This again was not what I was asking about -- the rather glaring double standard in evidence as the GOP suddenly applauds and defends the approach they railed against only a short while ago -- but I can understand if conservatives have trouble explaining that.

Sounds like politics as usual to me. I pointed out public opposition to union busting bills like issue 5 here in Ohio for the same reason (if the majority of the people are against it, what happened to that gold standard of all powerful public opinion?)

But I don't see it as a double standard. The GOP demagogued heathcare with phrases like "death panels." Less than a day after Ryan's plan broke, Wasserman-Shultz was calling it a "death trap" for seniors. Does either party really want seniors dead?

[MaripositaII]

Originally Posted by ryberg

I don't think it's hard to see why Dems did not win big again in Nov 2010: the tendency is for voters to swing back the other way in mid-term elections, right? And it was a big ol' victory for Dems in Nov 2008, so that makes sense.

The tendency is also for oversimplification and for immediate gratification: people think it should all be so simple and problems that took years if not decades to create can be solved with just this or that basic move, you know, in just a year or two. When they're not, they become frustrated and switch. (shrug)

This again was not what I was asking about -- the rather glaring double standard in evidence as the GOP suddenly applauds and defends the approach they railed against only a short while ago -- but I can understand if conservatives have trouble explaining that.

You're not letting them off that easy, are you?

It's been interesting chatting with people here about Obama's visit. They're eager and excited to speak about him, which is of course different from when Dubya was here a few years ago. I was in the UK at the time also. There were so many anti-Bush signs, T-shirts and negative press.

[CalifGuy]

It is nice isn't it. Finally we have someone at the top who gets a little respect in this world.

[gingele]

"OK, buddy, that's close enough"

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Sounds like politics as usual to me. I pointed out public opposition to union busting bills like issue 5 here in Ohio for the same reason (if the majority of the people are against it, what happened to that gold standard of all powerful public opinion?)

But I don't see it as a double standard. The GOP demagogued heathcare with phrases like "death panels." Less than a day after Ryan's plan broke, Wasserman-Shultz was calling it a "death trap" for seniors. Does either party really want seniors dead?

Maybe so, but again I'm referring to something else: the way conservatives characterized Dems' behavior, in following up on a campaign pledge they were (in part) elected on. That was described as undemocratic and not listening to the voice of the American people and polls were repeatedly trotted out in support of that irresponsible behavior. The message was not, "Dems are doing something that we think will cost them at the polls the next time around" but rather "Dems are doing something wrong, something they don't have the right to do, something that is an abuse of the system and the nation and the people (as these polls show, election results last fall be damned)."

Are there now Dems saying those things about the GOP and Ryan and Medicare? Or are the conservative commentators who took that view above not suddenly rejecting it, now that the parties are reversed?

I haven't heard of cases of the former. As to the latter, I already quoted 2 GOP electees who reverse that position and call it dealing honestly with the American people and leadership and so on.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Maybe so, but again I'm referring to something else: the way conservatives characterized Dems' behavior, in following up on a campaign pledge they were (in part) elected on. That was described as undemocratic and not listening to the voice of the American people and polls were repeatedly trotted out in support of that irresponsible behavior. The message was not, "Dems are doing something that we think will cost them at the polls the next time around" but rather "Dems are doing something wrong, something they don't have the right to do, something that is an abuse of the system and the nation and the people (as these polls show, election results last fall be damned)."

Are there now Dems saying those things about the GOP and Ryan and Medicare? Or are the conservative commentators who took that view above not suddenly rejecting it, now that the parties are reversed?

I haven't heard of cases of the former. As to the latter, I already quoted 2 GOP electees who reverse that position and call it dealing honestly with the American people and leadership and so on.

I have heard all of those things said about the Ryan plan.