Researchers claim they have discovered Noah's ark

[roni]

Originally Posted by Mnbruce

I'm not Christian. I am Jew, but I can't say 100% that there is a God, but I try live my life in a manner that would please one if there is one.

Here is the bit from the Humanist Manifesto II, released in 1973. The whole thing is worth reading and spending some time in thought.

Humanist Manifesto II

Religion

FIRST: In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an expression of genuine "spiritual" experience and aspiration.

We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural.

Some humanists believe we should reinterpret traditional religions and reinvest them with meanings appropriate to the current situation. Such redefinitions, however, often perpetuate old dependencies and escapisms; they easily become obscurantist, impeding the free use of the intellect. We need, instead, radically new human purposes and goals.

We appreciate the need to preserve the best ethical teachings in the religious traditions of humankind, many of which we share in common. But we reject those features of traditional religious morality that deny humans a full appreciation of their own potentialities and responsibilities. Traditional religions often offer solace to humans, but, as often, they inhibit humans from helping themselves or experiencing their full potentialities. Such institutions, creeds, and rituals often impede the will to serve others. Too often traditional faiths encourage dependence rather than independence, obedience rather than affirmation, fear rather than courage. More recently they have generated concerned social action, with many signs of relevance appearing in the wake of the "God Is Dead" theologies. But we can discover no divine purpose or providence for the human species. While there is much that we do not know, humans are responsible for what we are or will become. No deity will save us; we must save ourselves.

SECOND: Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful. They distract humans from present concerns, from self-actualization, and from rectifying social injustices. Modern science discredits such historic concepts as the "ghost in the machine" and the "separable soul." Rather, science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces. As far as we know, the total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context. There is no credible evidence that life survives the death of the body. We continue to exist in our progeny and in the way that our lives have influenced others in our culture.

Traditional religions are surely not the only obstacles to human progress. Other ideologies also impede human advance. Some forms of political doctrine, for instance, function religiously, reflecting the worst features of orthodoxy and authoritarianism, especially when they sacrifice individuals on the altar of Utopian promises. Purely economic and political viewpoints, whether capitalist or communist, often function as religious and ideological dogma. Although humans undoubtedly need economic and political goals, they also need creative values by which to live.

[Mercy]

Originally Posted by gingele

Yeah, that's not what this Chapter says, though. The chapter is pretty clear in that they counted the 32,000 girl children as "plunder", NOT shared with the priests, but kept solely to be divided among the soldiers (see verses 32-35). What you've posted here, Mikey, is just some random Christian apologist speculating and trying to rationalize the story (although I note your lack of citation).

Which is fine, as there are similar scholars who likewise engage in similar speculation and rationalization regarding the sections of the Koran that said Muhammad slept with a 9 year old.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

It says:

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

More than likely they were kept as slaves which was a common practice in those days. But I don't think they were taken for sexual purposes, that would violate other laws, as Mikey wrote.

[Luv2Dance]

Originally Posted by Mercy

It says:
More than likely they were kept as slaves which was a common practice in those days. But I don't think they were taken for sexual purposes, that would violate other laws, as Mikey wrote.

I'm skeptical.

[STOGEY]

According to Apostle Paul. God's tree of life. Has manu branches. That are just as important to the tree as the other.

Just because Muslims are differen from other groups. Tjat doesn't mean that they're not important to God and the rest of his tree of life.

Just like in the human body. Each different part is as important as the other. A persons heart cant say to a hand. You are different from me. Therefore i have no need of you. However a persons hands are used to pick up food. To supply the heart with nutrients to keep it beating.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by gingele

Yeah, that's not what this Chapter says, though. The chapter is pretty clear in that they counted the 32,000 girl children as "plunder", NOT shared with the priests, but kept solely to be divided among the soldiers (see verses 32-35). What you've posted here, Mikey, is just some random Christian apologist speculating and trying to rationalize the story (although I note your lack of citation).

Which is fine, as there are similar scholars who likewise engage in similar speculation and rationalization regarding the sections of the Koran that said Muhammad slept with a 9 year old.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I know I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but help me out maybe I'm missing it.

The LORD said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;

40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— 43 the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.

48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD.”

51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the LORD weighed 16,750 shekels.[a] 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD.

Plunder? Is this what we are talking about that would define sleeping with nine years old's? Even though it clearly says here.

"The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

So I am not seeing the whole men laying with nine year old's as looked upon by the grace of God vs Allah telling Muhammad bed your nine year old down and bare many children. What could Allah have possibly said to Muhammad to justify such a thing? I mean can nine year old's even get pregnant? And I can't imagine what having a child at 10, 11, 12 or 13 could do to a young girls body back then.

Anywho enjoy your day. Going to check out the MHH opening. We are getting new bridges in Dallas and one opens as far as pedestrians today. Santiago Calatraba is the architect.....

[melliedee]

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)

Judges 19 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)


The complete silence of God on the vileness of slavery in both the old and new testament has always bothered me.

[melliedee]

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Hosea 13 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

[gingele]

Originally Posted by Mikey

I know I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but help me out maybe I'm missing it.

The LORD said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;

40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— 43 the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.

48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD.”

51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the LORD weighed 16,750 shekels.[a] 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD.

OK, for ease of response, I've separated your post.

Above, you've simply cut and pasted part of Numbers 31 (verses 26 - 54). Since you haven't provided a citation, I don't know which one of the 30+ English language versions of the Bible you are quoting.

What is interesting, of course, is that you selected a version that refers to the captives that they kept (and didn't kill) as "women". You've even gone so far as to bold verses 32 - 35. This translation "women" is incorrect. The solders did not keep the adult women.

If you will recall (although you did not post), earlier in the chapter, the Israelite soldiers killed all of the Midianite men, and took captive their women and children.

7 And they warred against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew every male.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain: Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian; Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods, they took for a prey.

source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0431.htm


When the soldiers returned to Moses and told him that they kept all of the Midianite women and all of the Midianite children, Moses was pissed - in fact, he was particularly and specifically pissed about the fact that the women were still alive, because he blamed the Midianite women for seducing the Israelites and bringing a plague upon them. So he instructed the soldiers to kill all of the adult women and boy children.

So what does that leave? The girl children. Not adult "women", they were all killed.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war.

15 And Moses said unto them: 'Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to revolt so as to break faith with the LORD in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0431.htm

Originally Posted by Mikey

Plunder? Is this what we are talking about that would define sleeping with nine years old's? Even though it clearly says here.

"The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

I have no idea what you are quoting here, but it is not from the text. It is (as I stated earlier) simply one person's attempt to rationalize this unpleasant part of the Old Testament. It's understandable to want to try to explain this away, but it is just that, one random person's rationalization.

But what I can point out is that whoever this author may be, he is dead wrong in saying that in the rest of the chapter, these girl children were referred to as "people". There is a clear distinction made between the 32,000 girl children taken as plunder (verses 32 - 35), as they were NOT shared with the priests (tellingly) and kept only by the soldiers, and the 16,000 "people" listed as captives (see verses 40 - 46), and who WERE shared with the priests.

He is also wrong in that the Law condemned rape. This is not accurate. It condemned a man who would tarnish or harm another man's property, i.e., a wife or a betrothed. This fact is actually bolstered by this author's choice of citation in Deuteronomy 22:25-27, which makes it a crime to sleep with another man's wife (consensual or otherwise. Interestingly, in the case of was rape, if the woman was married they are BOTH put to death. Nice, huh?), or rape a virgin who is betrothed to another man - but not because the rape was wrong as a crime against women (or girls), but solely because she's now literally damaged property. Furthermore, this particular Law would never apply to these men raping the Midianite girl children, as they are no other man's property (i.e., wives or betrothed) - at least not anymore, since the soldiers were sure to kill all of the Midianite men first!

I can also tell you that this author is wrong with regards to his attempt to connecting the ritual post-bloody-battle cleansing with the conclusion that such ritual would somehow prevent the men from then raping the Midianite girl children. This is absolutely false and of course the author doesn't even try to substantiate this claim, he just sorta throws it out there. But what is ironic, given his fervent desire to wish this situation away, is his reference to Leviticus 15:16-18 in this context, as those verses are actually God's instructions to how to bathe yourself AFTER having sex.:

16 And if the flow of seed go out from a man, then he shall bathe all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.

17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the flow of seed, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.

18 The woman also with whom a man shall lie carnally, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

Originally Posted by Mikey

So I am not seeing the whole men laying with nine year old's as looked upon by the grace of God vs Allah telling Muhammad bed your nine year old down and bare many children. What could Allah have possibly said to Muhammad to justify such a thing? I mean can nine year old's even get pregnant? And I can't imagine what having a child at 10, 11, 12 or 13 could do to a young girls body back then.

I'm not really sure that I follow what you are trying to say here, Mikey.

The bottom line is that you asked me point blank:

Originally Posted by Mikey

FFS AMY it is in the Koran. This is something that one puts in their holiest of books. Anything in the Torah about sexing up nine year old's?

And unfortunately, there is. It's clear that these soldiers killed all of the adult women and male children, and kept the female children for themselves.

As for what they did with them? I think it's sweet that you or the person you quote above want to wish that there were fairy-tale endings for the female Midianite children.

But it is possible that after being raped, some of them might have become third or fourth wives. Because wouldn't ya know it, rape is actually one way that these soldiers could have turned the female children into their wives, and as a bonus, since they had already killed all of these girls' fathers, they didn't even have to pay them the fifty shekels that God otherwise requires from a man who rapes a virgin!:

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0522.htm

Originally Posted by Mikey

Anywho enjoy your day. Going to check out the MHH opening. We are getting new bridges in Dallas and one opens as far as pedestrians today. Santiago Calatraba is the architect.....

Yep! You too, best to E. And come on back and we can dissect the Torah some more!

[gingele]

Originally Posted by Luv2Dance

I'm skeptical.

Critical thinking is sexy.

[Mnbruce]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Beautifully said.....

I appreciate that Mikey.

[Mikey]

Ok so God approves of rape? Is there a passage that says the soldiers raped/laid with these young girls? Are you assuming this? 32,000 young girls raped by the soldiers of Moses?

[Mercy]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Ok so God approves of rape? Is there a passage that says the soldiers raped/laid with these young girls? Are you assuming this? 32,000 young girls raped by the soldiers of Moses?

[gingele]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Ok so God approves of rape? Is there a passage that says the soldiers raped/laid with these young girls? Are you assuming this? 32,000 young girls raped by the soldiers of Moses?

God makes it abundantly clear that women are property belonging first to their fathers, and then to their husband.

It is OK to rape a virgin so long as she is not betrothed to another and you pay her father 50 shekels. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a married woman is raped, SHE is put to death. Deuteronomy 22:22

Or how about when one of the Twelve Tribes was short on women, they first captured and raped 400 young virgins from Jabesh-gilead. And when the men were still not satisfied, the went to Shiloh and captured and raped more women? Judges 21

Or how about God setting forth rules about how a man can go about selling his daughter as a sex slave, and what can be done if she doesn't please the man who bought her? Exodus 21:7-11

So yeah, God approves of rape, so long as it isn't the rape of another man's property. In fact, God seems to endorse forcible rape as a legit way to get yourself a wife or three.

And what the heck do you think happened to the Midianite girls given to the soldiers, Mikey? That they all lived happily ever after?

You need to go back and read your Bible.

[melliedee]

10 So the assembly sent 12,000 of their best warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy[a] all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found 400 young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

13 The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the remaining people of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. 14 Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the 400 women of Jabesh-gilead who had been spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them.

15 The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had made this gap among the tribes of Israel. 16 So the elders of the assembly asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? 17 There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel is not wiped out. 18 But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

19 Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, south of Lebonah and north of Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. 20 They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. 21 When you see the young women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to the land of Benjamin to be your wife! 22 And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be sympathetic. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find wives for all of them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not actually give your daughters to them in marriage.’”

23 So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. Each man caught one of the women as she danced in the celebration and carried her off to be his wife. They returned to their own land, and they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.

Judges 21:10-24 NLT - So the assembly sent 12,000 of their - Bible Gateway

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by gingele

God makes it abundantly clear that women are property belonging first to their fathers, and then to their husband.

It is OK to rape a virgin so long as she is not betrothed to another and you pay her father 50 shekels. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a married woman is raped, SHE is put to death. Deuteronomy 22:22

Deuteronomy is brutal.

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Or how about when one of the Twelve Tribes was short on women, they first captured and raped 400 young virgins from Jabesh-gilead. And when the men were still not satisfied, the went to Shiloh and captured and raped more women? Judges 21

I just posted this one.

What is more surprising to me is that this is news to anyone.