Sometimes my firm opinion against banning books is sorely challenged

[melliedee]

We were talking about Rushdie's Satanic Verses on another thread:

Banned in the following countries for alleged blasphemy against Islam: Bangladesh, Egypt, India, Iran, Kenya, Kuwait, Liberia, Papua New Guinea, Pakistan, Senegal, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, and Thailand

Interesting list here:

List of books banned by governments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[melliedee]

FWIW, my thoughts about this particular book is summed up pretty well by Gingele's thread title. There are books which can and should challenge our views about book banning, and I don't have a problem with that. My responses have been about the door which is always opened, because banning one book usually leads to "let's ban em all" mentalities regarding other books. From the first article I linked on this:

And that’s exactly how things are supposed to work in a free society. Since the advent of the printing press – hell, since the advent of speech – morons and criminals have used words to espouse their despicable views. Meanwhile, right thinking people have had the choice to either ignore those views or listen long enough to dismiss or demolish them in public forums. We make laws to protect against specific incitement and certain types of hate speech, but otherwise our ability to debate broader ideas – no matter how abhorrent we believe them to be – is what separates us from the apes.

Also, from participating on the Banned Books Week events every fall on campus there is another almost universal impact which banning, or talking about banning, a book achieves: it increases the readership of that book. That happened here on Amazon with sales going from 1 to "top seller" as soon as the media exposed this story.

[melliedee]

Sorry for the marathon posts. I thought this was interesting about High Times magazine:

“The federal government cannot ban books,” says Carwile, who notes that the cannabis culture magazine is sold at Barnes and Noble and countless convenience stores across the nation. “They’re pressuring a business to ban books.”


EBay insists it’s always been company policy to prohibit sales of items that “encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others to engage in illegal activities,” according to Anne Kott with APCO Worldwide, a PR firm.

Despite sodomy laws still on the books in several states, including Virginia, eBay still allows the sale of hardcore gay sex magazines— plus sex toys and bondage equipment in its adults-only area. “Yet,” says Santana, “they pull this mainstream magazine.”

High Times Banned From eBay? | Cannabis Culture Magazine

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by melliedee

My point about fiction was only that for some it can provide the same instruction (and inspiration) as a "how to" book. And I did ask few questions about other manual type books, but no one ventured an answer:



There are books about how to process drugs in your kitchen. Martial arts guides which could teach you to kill an unsuspecting stranger on the street with one, well placed blow. Marksmen tutorials which could teach you to shoot a single bullet between the eyes of someone sitting in a crowded restaurant while you perch in a hotel window across the street. A cooking guide for how to prepare puffer fish just to the edge of death's door. All manner of torture guides, sexual or other.

Do these fall under the "ban em all" charge because they could result in murder, or in some cases are illegal?

good questions....I don't know.

I don't like the idea of the government banning them either. I suppose that is too much like having the 'thought police' in charge, none of us want that.

And reading about something does not mean you are DOING it...I get that.

It sounds like this book might be illegal in Canada, anyway?

I can also see High Times being pulled from newstands while hardcore porn is not....after all, smoking marijuana is illegal, sex between consenting adults is not.

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by Rissask

good questions....I don't know.

I don't like the idea of the government banning them either. I suppose that is too much like having the 'thought police' in charge, none of us want that.

And reading about something does not mean you are DOING it...I get that.

It sounds like this book might be illegal in Canada, anyway?

I can also see High Times being pulled from newstands while hardcore porn is not....after all, smoking marijuana is illegal, sex between consenting adults is not.

Depends where you live. Sodomy is still illegal in a few states.

Also, High Times is sold everywhere around here, and pot is not legal. That story was regarding back issues being yanked from someone's ebay site.

My problem with the door being opened that I keep mentioning is that we are now talking about this book in the same context as something like High Times or a martial arts guide or a gay sex magazine. I think that is a dangerous leap.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by melliedee

Depends where you live. Sodomy is still illegal in a few states.

Also, High Times is sold everywhere around here, and pot is not legal. That story was regarding back issues being yanked from someone's ebay site.

My problem with the door being opened that I keep mentioning is that we are now talking about this book in the same context as something like High Times or a martial arts guide or a gay sex magazine. I think that is a dangerous leap.

You are right- it is.


I just think pedophilia is something that the vast majority of sane people are totally dead set against- so getting people to care about a how to book on that topic is just a losing battle. Probably most people are willing to give a little on the civil rights aspect of it in order to get scum like that off the shelves...KWIM? A 'pick your battles' sort of thing?

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by Rissask

You are right- it is.


I just think pedophilia is something that the vast majority of sane people are totally dead set against- so getting people to care about a how to book on that topic is just a losing battle. Probably most people are willing to give a little on the civil rights aspect of it in order to get scum like that off the shelves...KWIM? A 'pick your battles' sort of thing?

I agree, but I'm not attempting to argue with that. It was your claim that other "how to" manuals should be banned if they are based on illegal activities or could possibly result in death. I disagree.

There are many reasons people might want to become an expert marksmen, and not all of them have to do with wanting to get away with murder. Sodomy might be illegal in a few places, but a gay sex magazine or book between consenting adults should be no one's business. Pot is illegal, but I don't really care if someone wants to take the risk at growing their own or read books or magazines about how to do that.

The "ban em all" charge takes the freedom to read what you want away from thinking people in a free society and lets the nutters make the choice for everyone. Maybe someone could use a shooting book or video to become an expert assassin, and maybe some people just like shooting targets.

[melliedee]

I keep mentioning Banned Books week put on by the ALA. Lots of good information about how/why a book is challenged or banned from their website.

Often challenges are motivated by a desire to protect children from “inappropriate” sexual content or “offensive” language. The following were the top three reasons cited for challenging materials as reported to the Office of Intellectual Freedom:

1. the material was considered to be "sexually explicit"
2. the material contained "offensive language"
3. the materials was "unsuited to any age group"

Although this is a commendable motivation, Free Access to Libraries for Minors, an interpretation of the Library Bill of Rights (ALA's basic policy concerning access to information) states that, “Librarians and governing bodies should maintain that parents—and only parents—have the right and the responsibility to restrict the access of their children—and only their children—to library resources.” Censorship by librarians of constitutionally protected speech, whether for protection or for any other reason, violates the First Amendment.

As Supreme Court Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., in Texas v. Johnson , said most eloquently:

If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.

ALA | About Banned & Challenged Books

[Mexivoof]

Originally Posted by Rissask

It is wrong and repugnant and should be banned....I am okay with saying that..... But you know what I think of cultural relativism.

I am A-okay with saying that any books that teach people how to do horrible, unimaginable things to underage or unwilling humans should all be banned. (how can anyone argue with that criteria, really?)

Whether it's 'How to Stone Your Wife for Being Raped' or 'How To Gay Bash Effectively' or 'How to Rape Children For Best Results' or 'How to Convince an Entire Religious Group That It's OK to Marry 13 Year Old Girls', I don't care-let's ban it.

Wow, such wide ranging powers you give to a government bureaucracy. Now, who do we want running that bureaucracy. Bushites, or Obamaites. Can burned books be unburned after the next election to make room for the next set of burned books. One good thing from the Kyoto nonsense is that this would probably be illegal, but we never ratified it anyway. Oh, and lets install a video camera in all rooms so that people caught reading banned books can be properly disposed of, perhaps on the banned books pyre. I'll donate my copy of 1984 for kindling!!

Originally Posted by Lemon Head

Sad that it got the pub. But at least Amazon did the right thing to s#!t can it. It should have never hit the play list to begin with.

If "Amazon" was a 'brick and mortar' store and had this book on the shelf they might have been facing criminal charges.

WTF, which Istan or SSR do you hail from Comrade?
I know, to the Gulag with me for not believing the government is not omnipotent.

Originally Posted by snappysammy

well, at least we know who should be making the decisions on what to ban

benign dictatorship has to be the best form of government, doncha think??

Oh, if this is Machiavellian, can he run for president, or at least chair the book burning board?

Originally Posted by UnoMasMezcal

I believe graphic images such as computer animation or paintings are illegal as well no? I am not sure.

Originally Posted by zelda

Actually, in Canada, it is.

No wonder they have loons on their coins.


As for Mein Kampf, why would any of you book burners object, I'm sure it has a chapter near and dear to your hearts. Maybe even a how to.

[Rissask]

are you having a bad day, Voof?

[Mexivoof]

Originally Posted by Rissask

are you having a bad day, Voof?

T'wasnt until a hot iron was jabbed into my civil libertarian nerve.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by Mexivoof

T'wasnt until a hot iron was jabbed into my civil libertarian nerve.

gotcha.

I am a big fan of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (like your Bill of Rights). Don't get me wrong.

I just think some things aren't worth fighting to protect. A book on how to get away with pedophilia is one of them.


I like this one, myself.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights


And I am pretty sure advocating pedophilia goes against some of these.



At any rate- aren't we just damned lucky that we live in countries where we have the luxury of worrying about stuff like this instead of the really important things- like where our next meal is coming from?

[Mexivoof]

Hey, you're a Canadian, at least you could spell it the cool British way: paedophile. Come on, add some local colour, 'tis only honourable

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by Mexivoof

Hey, you're a Canadian, at least you could spell it the cool British way: paedophile. Come on, add some local colour, 'tis only honourable

Naw, we use your spelling for that, the Brit way is just too odd.

we don't spell it 'aluminium' either.

[melliedee]

Three more pedophilia titles have been taken town from Amazon after customer complaints. Nearly 15,000 joined a boycott Amazon page on Facebook.