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Old 01-03-2012   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rissask View Post


I just found out today something I didn't realize- the pipeline isn't even underground, true? So that makes it FAR safer! (although more of an eyesore!)


No more so that those huge hidious looking windmills dotting the landscape.
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Old 01-03-2012   #47 (permalink)
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[/b]

No more so that those huge hidious looking windmills dotting the landscape.
Or solar panels...
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Old 01-03-2012   #48 (permalink)
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Just to clarify.....that doesn't mean I'm against the pipeline....it just means I don't think we need to jump into the project without first giving it a fair and unbiased assessment.....if that's even possible in this political climate..

Furthermore, I do not trust the EPA now that Obama is personally running it...
Until you deal with these people, you have no idea how twisted & warped their agenda is.
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Old 01-03-2012   #49 (permalink)
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It's so funny.

It's almost as if some think this pipeline is new and hasn't already been operating for years now. (It has.)

Or that they think that a switch to anything other than fossil fuels anytime soon wouldn't hurt the US economy even more, if that is possible (it would).

Or that the whole 'clean energy' sector is anywhere near ready to go on line, or that is infrastructure for it.

yup, funny.


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Mr. Barack Obama will ok the pipeline, crying, kicking & screaming about being forced by the conservatives to do it.
Yes, he will, I think so too.

And yeah, the windmills are eyesores as well, I agree. As are the pumpjacks all over and storage containers, etc. Whatcha gonna do.
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Old 01-03-2012   #50 (permalink)
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Is the pipeline gambit any more ridiculous than the "$5 trillion global clean technology market (and the jobs that go with it)" claim made in the article? What period of time are they talking about, 50 years; what are they including in their total value estimate? Let me guess, these are some of the same people that tried telling you that a $1.35 trillion tax cut equates to $3.2 trillion in lost revenue when carrying costs are included. Is it any wonder we are where we are now fiscally with people such as these at the helm?
So I see you do agree that the jobs claims for the pipeline are utter BS !
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Old 01-03-2012   #51 (permalink)
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Just make the pipeline look like a HUGE crack pipe & the libs will pass the bill to build easily into the US, right Vancouver?
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Old 01-03-2012   #52 (permalink)
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So I see you do agree that the jobs claims for the pipeline are utter BS !
I don't know whether the pipeline as envisioned will create 5,000 or 25,000 jobs; it is not necessarily the main reason to build or not build it. My comment was in the form of a question, which you studiously avoided answering directly (as is your wont on matters relating to numbers, I see). Anyone who thinks we will not need oil, gas, and/or coal in the same relative amounts as today for at least the next decade is a fool. Therefore, we should plan on having a relatively safe and accessible supply until such time as we don't need those resources.
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Old 01-03-2012   #53 (permalink)
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Around here the majority of new jobs are coming from the Marcellus shale and gas drilling. And I just read an interesting article about how Germany's much touted wind farms are running into huge cost overruns, and connecting it to the grid is turning into a huge nightmare. Also, it is estimated up to 20,000 jobs will be LOST eventually because of this. Food for thought.
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Old 01-03-2012   #54 (permalink)
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Around here the majority of new jobs are coming from the Marcellus shale and gas drilling. And I just read an interesting article about how Germany's much touted wind farms are running into huge cost overruns, and connecting it to the grid is turning into a huge nightmare. Also, it is estimated up to 20,000 jobs will be LOST eventually because of this. Food for thought.
And yet Germany has an amazingly low unemployment rate in the midst of major disasters everywhere else in the Eurozone......something we should perhaps study to perhaps emulate in some fashion?

Here

Wind mills are EVERYWHERE in Germany and they are all obviously connected to the grid....

Last edited by Jacko; 01-03-2012 at 04:37 PM..
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Old 01-03-2012   #55 (permalink)
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I don't know whether the pipeline as envisioned will create 5,000 or 25,000 jobs; it is not necessarily the main reason to build or not build it. My comment was in the form of a question, which you studiously avoided answering directly (as is your wont on matters relating to numbers, I see). Anyone who thinks we will not need oil, gas, and/or coal in the same relative amounts as today for at least the next decade is a fool. Therefore, we should plan on having a relatively safe and accessible supply until such time as we don't need those resources.
What is foolish is to not understand that ANY oil resource will be tied to the overall world oil market..so to think that chaos in the Middle East will not impact tar sands produced oil is naive. Just like thinking the pipeline will create 100,000 or even 20,000 jobs.

We need to find a way to more quickly move away from carbon-based energy over time however possible.

Last edited by Jacko; 01-03-2012 at 04:58 PM..
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Old 01-03-2012   #56 (permalink)
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And yet Germany has an amazingly low unemployment rate in the midst of major disasters everywhere else in the Eurozone......something we should perhaps study to perhaps emulate in some fashion?
Germany uses a lot of imported labor. Their financial picture is far from rosy. Merkel has no problem answering to Brussels. Germany is facing increasing resentment from many in the Eurozone who are sick of caving on their sovereignty...Germany has a lot of problems.


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Wind mills are EVERYWHERE in Germany and they are all obviously connected to the grid....
Really? Maybe I misread this piece in Der Spiegel....?

Stress on the High Seas: Germany's Wind Power Revolution in the Doldrums - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
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Old 01-03-2012   #57 (permalink)
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Germany uses a lot of imported labor. Their financial picture is far from rosy. Merkel has no problem answering to Brussels. Germany is facing increasing resentment from many in the Eurozone who are sick of caving on their sovereignty...Germany has a lot of problems.




Really? Maybe I misread this piece in Der Spiegel....?

Stress on the High Seas: Germany's Wind Power Revolution in the Doldrums - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
Yes, I believe you may have misread it. That article is talking about NORTH SEA wind farms, not the wind mills that are all over Germany.

Merkel LEADS Brussels, rather than answering to Brussels.

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Old 01-03-2012   #58 (permalink)
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Yes, I believe you may have misread it. That article is talking about NORTH SEA wind farms, not the wind mills that are all over Germany.

Merkel LEADS Brussels, rather than answering to Brussels.
No I didn't misread it-you just don't know your geography.. The Islands belong to GERMANY and so does the project. So your statement that all of Germany's windmills are on-line is incorrect. Read the article....it involves billions in GERMAN money and cost over runs. This project represents a HUGE chunk of Germany's overall wind program.

And Merkel's desire to lead all things European -and dictate Europe's future is the PROBLEM. People are a little skeptical of another Reich. The Euro is shaky as hell and so is the Eurozone. I think shit is going to hit the fan...or possibly a German windmill in 2012.
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Old 01-03-2012   #59 (permalink)
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No I didn't misread it-you just don't know your geography.. The Islands belong to GERMANY and so does the project. So your statement that all of Germany's windmills are on-line is incorrect. Read the article....it involves billions in GERMAN money and cost over runs. This project represents a HUGE chunk of Germany's overall wind program.

And Merkel's desire to lead all things European -and dictate Europe's future is the PROBLEM. People are a little skeptical of another Reich. The Euro is shaky as hell and so is the Eurozone. I think shit is going to hit the fan...or possibly a German windmill in 2012.


Of course windmills that are in process are not yet online..you are just nit-picking a bit methinks..Germany gets over 6% of its total electrical power from wind (power that is connected to the grid of course)...we only get something less than 2%....but at 15% growth our wind power development is growing faster... China's growth is 64%! This is not a little thing...

We have got to start to understand our energy production in another way...the days of one source of power (carbon) are limited...we must start to understand that it will take MANY sources of energy to meet our needs and manage the environmental problems with carbon and its limited supply...Will there be problems along the way? Certainly...deep seaa oil wells will blow, tankers and pipelines will spill and wind mills in the Seas will have problems..all potentially costing billions of dollars.......still, we must make the correct choices and diversify our energy sourcing profiles while maximizing conservation....

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Old 01-04-2012   #60 (permalink)
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What is foolish is to not understand that ANY oil resource will be tied to the overall world oil market..so to think that chaos in the Middle East will not impact tar sands produced oil is naive. Just like thinking the pipeline will create 100,000 or even 20,000 jobs.

We need to find a way to more quickly move away from carbon-based energy over time however possible.
I think you miss the point; while it is true that oil, gas, and coal are fungible products and thus subject to the vagaries of a world market, there are some sets of circumstances better than others. For example, which would you chose and why;

All of the carbon-based fuel resources located in very limited and distant geographic areas ruled by despotic sheiks and dictators with an animus toward the western world in general and the USA in particular

or

Carbon-based fuel resources spread out across the globe, including within our own country and within the confines of our closest allies, one of whom we also happen to share a five thousand mile common border?

Decode your answer now.
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