Chiropractors

[Uno]

I wouldn't discount chiropractic care AND supplements in the right circumstances. One of my best friends was in a motorcycle crash when we were in our 20's. His back was bad off. He couldn't tie his own shoe, or pick his leg up high enough to put his foot on a chair. The doctors told him he would probably need surgery. He when like this for months and finally went to a chiropractor. The chiro checked him out and did some adjustments and told him he was extremely calcium deficient. He gave him some pills and within 2 months, his pain was gone. Full mobility restored. This was over 25 years ago. I am a believer based on proof. It just isn't right for my problems.

[PlayaGroom]

There are so many different "levels" of chiropractic "medicine."

I'm a bit in ryberg's camp on the physical manipulation ideas of therapy. Keyword in that statement is "therapy," NOT healing. Therapy makes people feel better. If something makes you feel better, placebo or not, it's technically working. This doesn't mean it's healing your ailment but it could, as some research has shown. Oxycontin doesn't heal your sore neck, but it sure as hell makes it feel better, so it works.

That same argument applies to Acupuncture. If sticking needles in your ankle makes the pain in your jaw better, it's working. Is it fixing the nerve damage or physical damage that may be underlying? No. It's just redirecting the pain and maybe relaxing some muscles if done correctly.

The whole homeopathic camp is belief-based. You might as well start an argument about God or vaccines at the same time when talking with those people. If you believe something is working or is going to fix something, you're going to do everything you can to convince yourself; especially if you're spending money on it, or better yet: are making money from it.


More anecdotal evidence: I have pretty severe TMJ (my jaw). Saw a local chiro after being told surgery was the only way to fix it, but there were significant risks with it and it's really only done when the TMJ is debilitating. The chiro did the whole "summoning the energy in the room" by whooping and calling and directed it into my jaw when using this little spring contraption that snapped really hard into my joint, then was told to keep my mouth loosely open for the next 3 days. Woke up the next day with bruises on my face and a locked jaw. It took PT three weeks to get it back to "pre-chiro" status, then they taught me exercises and massages to manage it myself. I can manage the pain yet today, for the most part. I would argue that there is a level of chiro that is essentially PT. There is also chiro that relies on modern medicine (like lab testing that Uno is referring to) to help patients.

[Uno]

Originally Posted by PlayaGroom

There are so many different "levels" of chiropractic "medicine."

I'm a bit in ryberg's camp on the physical manipulation ideas of therapy. Keyword in that statement is "therapy," NOT healing. Therapy makes people feel better. If something makes you feel better, placebo or not, it's technically working. This doesn't mean it's healing your ailment but it could, as some research has shown. Oxycontin doesn't heal your sore neck, but it sure as hell makes it feel better, so it works.

That same argument applies to Acupuncture. If sticking needles in your ankle makes the pain in your jaw better, it's working. Is it fixing the nerve damage or physical damage that may be underlying? No. It's just redirecting the pain and maybe relaxing some muscles if done correctly.

The whole homeopathic camp is belief-based. You might as well start an argument about God or vaccines at the same time when talking with those people. If you believe something is working or is going to fix something, you're going to do everything you can to convince yourself; especially if you're spending money on it, or better yet: are making money from it.


More anecdotal evidence: I have pretty severe TMJ (my jaw). Saw a local chiro after being told surgery was the only way to fix it, but there were significant risks with it and it's really only done when the TMJ is debilitating. The chiro did the whole "summoning the energy in the room" by whooping and calling and directed it into my jaw when using this little spring contraption that snapped really hard into my joint, then was told to keep my mouth loosely open for the next 3 days. Woke up the next day with bruises on my face and a locked jaw. It took PT three weeks to get it back to "pre-chiro" status, then they taught me exercises and massages to manage it myself. I can manage the pain yet today, for the most part.

That's exactly what my PT said. "Chiropractors have a much better business model than we do. They set up a program for return visits, and we try and teach you how to do it yourself, at home."

My PT also does joint manipulation but it's not a snap n jerk technique (which I want NO PART OF on my neck.) It's moving and stretching and excersizing muscles to move your joints into alignment. (Which hurts like hell by the way.)

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by PlayaGroom

There are so many different "levels" of chiropractic "medicine."

I'm a bit in ryberg's camp on the physical manipulation ideas of therapy. Keyword in that statement is "therapy," NOT healing. Therapy makes people feel better. If something makes you feel better, placebo or not, it's technically working. This doesn't mean it's healing your ailment but it could, as some research has shown. Oxycontin doesn't heal your sore neck, but it sure as hell makes it feel better, so it works.

That same argument applies to Acupuncture. If sticking needles in your ankle makes the pain in your jaw better, it's working. Is it fixing the nerve damage or physical damage that may be underlying? No. It's just redirecting the pain and maybe relaxing some muscles if done correctly.

The whole homeopathic camp is belief-based. You might as well start an argument about God or vaccines at the same time when talking with those people. If you believe something is working or is going to fix something, you're going to do everything you can to convince yourself; especially if you're spending money on it, or better yet: are making money from it.


More anecdotal evidence: I have pretty severe TMJ (my jaw). Saw a local chiro after being told surgery was the only way to fix it, but there were significant risks with it and it's really only done when the TMJ is debilitating. The chiro did the whole "summoning the energy in the room" by whooping and calling and directed it into my jaw when using this little spring contraption that snapped really hard into my joint, then was told to keep my mouth loosely open for the next 3 days. Woke up the next day with bruises on my face and a locked jaw. It took PT three weeks to get it back to "pre-chiro" status, then they taught me exercises and massages to manage it myself. I can manage the pain yet today, for the most part. I would argue that there is a level of chiro that is essentially PT. There is also chiro that relies on modern medicine (like lab testing that Uno is referring to) to help patients.

Agreed.

I am sure for some people who believe in it, it works great. I don't buy that it would, so if I had a sore back or something, I would do other things.

As always, we are on the same page about this stuff.


I guess I sort of feel like Charlie on 2 & a Half Men did, about chiropractors. lol

[Robinhood]

Originally Posted by Rissask

So you aren't concerned at all that the entire field is considered to be pretty much pseudoscience at worst, alternative medicine at best, by the majority of the medical field and scientific field?

Chiropractic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Or is it a 'I believe it works for me, therefore it's real' sort of thing?

I wonder what that medical and scientific field have to say about the dangers of mainstream medicine vs alternative in relation to the dangers by comparison of the 2?? I think i would be more concerned with the stats against mainstream vs alternative. I am not a fan of Chiro but i think that alternative medicine provides a balance for some, take marijuana for example. The problem with your argument about research is that most drug and medical research is funded by drug companies and the interset to achieve profit sometimes out-ways the benefits thus there is very little research to substantiate the claims made by alternative medicine . The propaganda against holistic or alternative medicine is largely driven by the drug companies . Why would you pay thousands in drug costs when for example you could find an alternative substance that is relatively low cost or obtainable without prescription and provides relief without the side effects?? There are many examples of indigenous people through out history who found methods and natural substances that can cure and prevent ailments at no cost. Most drugs were made from natural occurring chemicals that are plant based. Somehow pharmaceutical companies figured on a method of making profit from it and here we are big PHARMA.

• In a June 2010 report in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, study authors said that in looking over records that spanned from 1976 to 2006 (the most recent year available) they found that, of 62 million death certificates, almost a quarter-million deaths were coded as having occurred in a hospital setting due to medication errors.
• An estimated 450,000 preventable medication-related adverse events occur in the U.S. every year.
• The costs of adverse drug reactions to society are more than $136 billion annually -- greater than the total cost of cardiovascular or diabetic care.
• Adverse drug reactions cause injuries or death in 1 of 5 hospital patients.
• The reason there are so many adverse drug events in the U.S. is because so many drugs are used and prescribed – and many patients receive multiple prescriptions at varying strengths, some of which may counteract each other or cause more severe reactions when combined.

There are numerous repercussions to a society that eats, breathes and sleeps prescription medications, not the least of which is its impact on children. Between 2001 and 2008, there was a 36 percent increase in hospital admissions, and a 28 percent increase in emergency room visits, among children 5 and younger who had accidentally ingested medication. ER visits for ingestion of prescription opioid painkillers, such as Oxycodone, increased 101 percent!
And in 2009, there were nearly 4.6 million drug-related visits to U.S. emergency rooms nationwide, with more than half due to adverse reactions to prescription medications – most of which were being taken exactly as prescribed. When you add in the growing numbers of people who are using these drugs recreationally or due to addiction, you begin to see the magnitude of the problem that the pharmaceutical industry is propagating.
Unfortunately, this problem is now seriously impacting the next generation. When you were a teenager you may have snuck a beer or two at a party … nowadays teens will mix a variety of prescription pills together in a bowl and take a mouthful of them like candy! The kids think this is a safe way to get high, since they see their parents taking the same medications all the time, but it often turns out to be a literal prescription for disaster that can even be deadly.

[Rissask]

I am not a fan of Chiro

Then why are you ranting.....this thread concerns chiro only.

I sure agree you guys take a LOT of drugs down there! The ads on US tv always amazes me. I would never claim it is a good thing to just pop a pill for every tiny thing- just the things you need to. I just don't think much of many so-called 'natural cures' either.

[PlayaGroom]

Originally Posted by Robinhood

I wonder what that medical and scientific field have to say about the dangers of mainstream medicine vs alternative in relation to the dangers by comparison of the 2?? I think i would be more concerned with the stats against mainstream vs alternative. I am not a fan of Chiro but i think that alternative medicine provides a balance for some, take marijuana for example. The problem with your argument about research is that most drug and medical research is funded by drug companies and the interset to achieve profit sometimes out-ways the benefits thus there is very little research to substantiate the claims made by alternative medicine . The propaganda against holistic or alternative medicine is largely driven by the drug companies . Why would you pay thousands in drug costs when for example you could find an alternative substance that is relatively low cost or obtainable without prescription and provides relief without the side effects?? There are many examples of indigenous people through out history who found methods and natural substances that can cure and prevent ailments at no cost. Most drugs were made from natural occurring chemicals that are plant based. Somehow pharmaceutical companies figured on a method of making profit from it and here we are big PHARMA.

• In a June 2010 report in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, study authors said that in looking over records that spanned from 1976 to 2006 (the most recent year available) they found that, of 62 million death certificates, almost a quarter-million deaths were coded as having occurred in a hospital setting due to medication errors.
• An estimated 450,000 preventable medication-related adverse events occur in the U.S. every year.
• The costs of adverse drug reactions to society are more than $136 billion annually -- greater than the total cost of cardiovascular or diabetic care.
• Adverse drug reactions cause injuries or death in 1 of 5 hospital patients.
• The reason there are so many adverse drug events in the U.S. is because so many drugs are used and prescribed – and many patients receive multiple prescriptions at varying strengths, some of which may counteract each other or cause more severe reactions when combined.

There are numerous repercussions to a society that eats, breathes and sleeps prescription medications, not the least of which is its impact on children. Between 2001 and 2008, there was a 36 percent increase in hospital admissions, and a 28 percent increase in emergency room visits, among children 5 and younger who had accidentally ingested medication. ER visits for ingestion of prescription opioid painkillers, such as Oxycodone, increased 101 percent!
And in 2009, there were nearly 4.6 million drug-related visits to U.S. emergency rooms nationwide, with more than half due to adverse reactions to prescription medications – most of which were being taken exactly as prescribed. When you add in the growing numbers of people who are using these drugs recreationally or due to addiction, you begin to see the magnitude of the problem that the pharmaceutical industry is propagating.
Unfortunately, this problem is now seriously impacting the next generation. When you were a teenager you may have snuck a beer or two at a party … nowadays teens will mix a variety of prescription pills together in a bowl and take a mouthful of them like candy! The kids think this is a safe way to get high, since they see their parents taking the same medications all the time, but it often turns out to be a literal prescription for disaster that can even be deadly.

The Journal of General Internal Medicine's numbers look scary when presented as such.

But you can't throw them out like that. Big numbers are scary.

Taking those exact same numbers, over the span of 30 years, <250,000 (or as you put it "almost a quarter million") out of 62,000,000 death certificates showed death in a hospital setting due to medication errors.

250,000 / 62,000,000 = 0.4%

Less than half of one percent of those death were due to errors.

Oh the humanity!

Am I arguing that our use of prescription medications is acceptable at our current rate? No.

But I am arguing that the dangers of them that are regularly presented are quite often blatantly exaggerated.

The argument that research can't be trusted because it's paid for by "big pharma" is bogus as well. They pay for research to be done because it HAS to be done. They can provide statistically significant numbers to show that their drug IS safe AND effective to a certain degree AND a certified regulatory body has approved it.

Is there deception by marketing or fraud by some companies? Of course. That's, unfortunately, inherent in any industry. But the crutch arguments by "alternative medicine" that they don't cost as much because we don't research them or that they don't have the money to pay for research because they're not focused on profit don't bear weight either. They're making unsubstantiated claims and have NO data to back them up. You have to believe them at their word. Could they work? Of course they could. Do they work? Some probably do, some even better than chemically modified drugs. But is there any proof of it? Nope.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Rissask

Agreed.

I am sure for some people who believe in it, it works great. I don't buy that it would, so if I had a sore back or something, I would do other things.

As always, we are on the same page about this stuff.


I guess I sort of feel like Charlie on 2 & a Half Men did, about chiropractors. lol

Well I don't know what the latter is about (don't watch that show), but do you "believe" that yoga or stretching or muscle work and so on works? Because to me it's the same thing, as I see chiropractic. That is, I don't need to "believe" in anything, it simply and demonstrably does work, just like massaging a sore or overworked muscle works, or stretching muscles helps avoid injury and pain, or exercising the body works to keep one healthy and fit, etc. The question would be why someone would believe manipulating misaligned bones back into place would not be beneficial.

So I can only conclude that you are most likely not talking about what I'm talking about when the word "chiropractic" comes up.

[Uno]

It's not healing with crystals and copper bracelets we are talking about. It's not really a "belief" If you have a collar bone that is not quite in alignment and you pop it back in place, it feels better. Once something is damaged, torn, ruptured, fractured, etc... Chiropractic is not going to help.

[Uno]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Well I don't know what the latter is about (don't watch that show), but do you "believe" that yoga or stretching or muscle work and so on works? Because to me it's the same thing, as I see chiropractic. That is, I don't need to "believe" in anything, it simply and demonstrably does work, just like massaging a sore or overworked muscle works, or stretching muscles helps avoid injury and pain, or exercising the body works to keep one healthy and fit, etc. The question would be why someone would believe manipulating misaligned bones back into place would not be beneficial.

So I can only conclude that you are most likely not talking about what I'm talking about when the word "chiropractic" comes up.

I agree. If a guy tells you to go out at midnight and howl at the moon, he's not really a Chiropractor.

[ryberg]

Originally Posted by Uno

It's not healing with crystals and copper bracelets we are talking about. It's not really a "belief" If you have a collar bone that is not quite in alignment and you pop it back in place, it feels better. Once something is damaged, torn, ruptured, fractured, etc... Chiropractic is not going to help.

Originally Posted by Uno

I agree. If a guy tells you to go out at midnight and howl at the moon, he's not really a Chiropractor.

Yeah, or if he tries to sell you those copper bracelets, or for example claims that his work can probably cure cancer or other such diseases. (Which I guess some of them have done!)

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by ryberg

Well I don't know what the latter is about (don't watch that show), but do you "believe" that yoga or stretching or muscle work and so on works? Because to me it's the same thing, as I see chiropractic. That is, I don't need to "believe" in anything, it simply and demonstrably does work, just like massaging a sore or overworked muscle works, or stretching muscles helps avoid injury and pain, or exercising the body works to keep one healthy and fit, etc. The question would be why someone would believe manipulating misaligned bones back into place would not be beneficial.

So I can only conclude that you are most likely not talking about what I'm talking about when the word "chiropractic" comes up.

Exactly my point though....I think of them basically as glorified masseuses. Which just begs the question of why the fancy title and bogus 'schools' and diplomas.

Not every state and province recognizes them either. Here, if you want to go see one, you pay out of pocket- our healthcare will not pay for chiropractic 'treatment'.

And- why do YOU think it is only a North American thing, mostly? Just curious what your explanation would be.

And-really guys? You think actual BONES go 'out of alignment' and the chiro 'pops them back into' aligment? Does that really sound like a sound medical scientific explanation, to you? I would think if a bone is 'out of alignment' it is either broken or dislocated. No?

[ryberg]

You don't think that can happen?

But then you seem to because you allow that they can be dislocated... What does that mean if it does now indicate that things can go out of place or alignment?

Do you think that the wheels on your car go out of alignment after sufficient use and hitting bumps and potholes and so forth? Or that getting them aligned may help the performance and ride of your car? I do, just like I believe the equivalent thing of my body, another "machine" made up in a rather complex way of various interconnected parts.

[Rissask]

You ever crack your knuckles and hear a 'pop'?

That is just bubbles popping in the fluid around your joints.

It's all a chiro does when he 'cracks' your back.


Chiropractic Spinal Manipulation

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...ng-my-neck.htm


http://skepdic.com/chiro.html

[ryberg]

Put it this way: do you have a problem with this statement?

Originally Posted by Uno

If you have a collar bone that is not quite in alignment and you pop it back in place, it feels better.

And I think it's safe to say by extension that it not only feels better, but that anything involving the use of that collarbone and connected muscles and so forth will go better for you, as well, going forward from that adjustment.

If you're arguing against the above, then I don't know what to say, because I mean even a medical doctor will advise you to put a dislocated shoulder back into place and not just leave it like that, right? For all those same reasons: it will feel better and that part of your body will function better going forward.

If you accept that, then what is the issue? I mean you have already said that you think a collarbone or shoulder or other bones/joints can be dislocated (your word)... You don't think they're putting anything back into place, or what? Because you pretty much know when they've done that, in almost every case. You don't get immediate relief emanating from the area around a knuckle you just popped (at least I don't!), but you do when your collarbone or shoulder or lower back or whatever are nicely realigned.

Again if you're talking about something one has to believe in, then you must be talking about something I'm personally not talking about here (and which it appears PG and Uno are also not talking about), but rather some kind of quackery or snake oil salesman type of thing we also avoid.