Alternative History

[horizon200]

On our car club forum, one of the guys posed the question of what we think would have happened had we not involved ourselves in WWII when we did.


I have read several of Harry Turtledove's books. Fictional novels about alternative history. They do make you think! FOr example, he has two books on "what if the Japanese had followed up the bombing of Pearl Harbor with an invasion force?".

So, what Alternative History Question do you ponder?

[melliedee]

I always wonder about the fall/rise of ancient civilizations and the impact upon the rest of history had it gone another way.

Cool question!

[horizon200]

It's amazing how much things could change with one person's single decision!

[Rissask]

What if Darwin never came up with The Origin of the Species when he did, where would we be today....I wonder.


Same thing with many other scientific discoveries.

What if we hadn't burned down your White House....would I live in what would be the northern USA today?

[cb1]

Ris, Read about "What if Darwin.." on the religious threads !

[melliedee]

Originally Posted by Rissask

What if Darwin never came up with The Origin of the Species when he did, where would we be today....I wonder.


Same thing with many other scientific discoveries.

The thing with scientific discoveries is that there is usually someone right on the heels of the original person who gets the credit.

The letter was addressed to Mr. Charles Darwin. Along with it Wallace enclosed a brief paper titled "On the Tendency of Varieties to depart indefinitely from the Original Type." It was the product of two nights' hasty scribbling, which followed a moment's epiphany during a fever, which in turn followed more than ten years of speculation and careful research. What the paper described was a theory of evolution (though not under that name) by natural selection (not using that phrase) remarkably similar to the theory that Darwin himself, then an eminent naturalist of rather conventional reputation, had developed but hadn't yet published.

Wallace

[beam-eye]

Originally Posted by melliedee

The thing with scientific discoveries is that there is usually someone right on the heels of the original person who gets the credit.

Wallace

Thanks for reviving the contributions of Alfred Russell Wallace to evolutionary thought! He's been one of my favorite "little knowns" for years. Thanks for the good article ref, too - didn't see anything in it, though, about "The Wallace Line" that separates SE Asian from Australian fauna, all noted by this remarkable man in the mid- 1800s.

[Seakony]

I always wonder about what if Bill clinton had killed Bin Ladin when he had him in his sights.

[beam-eye]

Originally Posted by horizon200

On our car club forum, one of the guys posed the question of what we think would have happened had we not involved ourselves in WWII when we did.

I have read several of Harry Turtledove's books. Fictional novels about alternative history. They do make you think! FOr example, he has two books on "what if the Japanese had followed up the bombing of Pearl Harbor with an invasion force?"...

This is interesting grist for the history buff's mill (and Harry Turtledove has such a fertile mind and prolific pen!). The potential list of "What ifs?" is endless.

The first thing that springs to mind is that this forum would be in German (and/or Russian) instead of English - assuming, of course, that "forums" were even "allowed" - my guess is: "probably not allowed".

But, if they were allowed, we might be wading through threads like "What is the best beer for kindergarteners in the military academy?" ("Das besten bier fur das kindergarten getrinkerin in....", well, my mind boggles, or at least bogs down) - and, of course, from the opposite corner, the ever-popular "Love for my Socialist Tractor in Kazakhestan" (or possibly ""Love on my Socialist Tractor in Kazakhestan", by Russy Piot, if they were feeling really "racy" - the Soviets, not the tractors - although there is that "Monster Tractor Squashing" mechanized wrestling we do that somewhat resembles tractors mating, if only temporarily - have you ever wondered what the "power take off" thingy on the tractor's nether region was for? Now you know - and, like baseball, the Russians "invented it" first).

The Japanese did "invade" Hawaii (finally...uh,and again) in the 60s, noting that it was a really good place to have a wedding, honeymoon, liaisons dangereuses, and so on, long before Playa was just a twinkle in its father's eye (and this month, I think, is one of the Japanese "Golden Weeks" - "Obon" - when the west coast of Mexico, like Melaque, for example, which has its own little Japanese restaurant, gets a mini-surge of Japanese tourism).

I have an interest in alternative history, but little knowledge - I hope somebody out there will weigh in with...well, more "weighty" posts. Thanks.

[roni]

I have at times wondered what history might have been with a President Robert Kennedy instead of a President Richard Nixon.

[Mindbender]

Originally Posted by horizon200

...what we think would have happened had we not involved ourselves in WWII when we did.

Hmm, from the British perspective, it's often asked, if the US had helped sooner what would have happened.

The battle of Britain is seen as a major turning point in the war, if we'd lost that, the later US involvement and the outcome could have been very different. So I'd pose the question from that event to consider the consequences.

[beam-eye]

Originally Posted by Mindbender

Hmm, from the British perspective, it's often asked, if the US had helped sooner what would have happened.

The battle of Britain is seen as a major turning point in the war, if we'd lost that, the later US involvement and the outcome could have been very different. So I'd pose the question from that event to consider the consequences.

There is a recent novel (last 20 years - recent to me, anyhow) about this very thing - "What if Britain lost the war and was occupied by the Nazis" - can't remember the title or author - I checked Frederick Forsythe, Ken Follett, Jack Higgins, etc., but couldn't find it. Anybody know?

[Mindbender]

I don't know it.

I've imagined that if we'd lost the Battle of Britain and therefore all air capability that occupation was more probable. If so, with all Europe fallen, Germany would have regrouped, strengthened, then headed for latin american, gained allies/cannon fodder, to eventually make a land and sea based assault on the US and Canada, especially if Russia had remained an ally, who'd attack via Alaska and Canada. Japan and Italy joining in, Spain too if they'd finished fighting themselves.

[Rissask]

Originally Posted by melliedee

The thing with scientific discoveries is that there is usually someone right on the heels of the original person who gets the credit.




Wallace

Yes, that is very true.

It was more of a 'I wonder how we'd be different today if the discoveries didn't happen at the exact times they happened, and in that order' type of thought.

There is a recent novel (last 20 years - recent to me, anyhow) about this very thing - "What if Britain lost the war and was occupied by the Nazis" - can't remember the title or author - I checked Frederick Forsythe, Ken Follett, Jack Higgins, etc., but couldn't find it. Anybody know?

No....but for anyone interested in this genre of alternate history/Tom Clancy books, this series is supposed to be very good:

Axis of Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I am reading Without Warning by that author (John Birmingham) right now and it is excellent!

synopsis:

On the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom, 14 March 2003, the bulk of the United States' population (along with the bulk of the populations of Canada, Mexico, and Cuba) disappears as the result of a large energy field that becomes known as The Wave. Without Warning deals with the international consequences of the disappearance of the world's last super power on the eve of war.

[Sue]

Originally Posted by melliedee

The thing with scientific discoveries is that there is usually someone right on the heels of the original person who gets the credit.




Wallace

Reading this reminds me of something I was thinking about when I was watching Battlestar Galactica. The show is about humans that have never been to earth, which to them is only a sort of legend.

A scene takes place on Caprica, which has been nuked by the enemy. Two characters are hiding in an abandoned restaurant. If you look around, you see plates and cups and glasses and even an espresso machine. Every object looks exactly like the objects we use on Earth. I thought, "How could they have the exact same stuff as we do on Earth, if they've never been here?" Then I thought, "If you have a second, isolated set of humans, would they ultimately come up with the same things that the first set of humans does?"

Don't laugh at me.