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Old 08-09-2017   #46 (permalink)
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The conditions and lack of regulation at some of those unofficial cobalt mines in Africa are awful indeed...especially the using kids as workers.

But that is really more of a symptom of major humans rights abuses and extreme poverty in that part of the world, not really a reason for throwing out the whole electric car concept.
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Old 08-09-2017   #47 (permalink)
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The conditions and lack of regulation at some of those unofficial cobalt mines in Africa are awful indeed...especially the using kids as workers.

But that is really more of a symptom of major humans rights abuses and extreme poverty in that part of the world, not really a reason for throwing out the whole electric car concept.

I don't think he was "throwing out the concept". More like saying, "not until XXX will I consider it." In my case, I won't be buying one until they are mass produced, have a good track record and are affordable.
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Old 08-09-2017   #48 (permalink)
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Hmmmm....well if that's a legit reason for boycotting batteries, better not only not buy electric cars and smartphones, but don't buy vitamins or fly on planes or go to the dentist, and hope you never need a new hip
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Old 08-09-2017   #49 (permalink)
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Hmmmm....well if that's a legit reason for boycotting batteries, better not only not buy electric cars and smartphones, but don't buy vitamins or fly on planes or go to the dentist, and hope you never need a new hip

No, I think it is like I stated above. Lots of people here claim to be super concerned with global warming but they don't stop vacationing or driving or using the computer in the AC. They may, however, choose to do some things that limit their carbon footprint (God, I hate saying that phrase) and, thus, ease their conscience somewhat. Even the most vocal climate change advocates aren't holding up in a cabin with Samsquanch (some will get this).
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Old 08-09-2017   #50 (permalink)
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No, I think it is like I stated above. Lots of people here claim to be super concerned with global warming but they don't stop vacationing or driving or using the computer in the AC. They may, however, choose to do some things that limit their carbon footprint (God, I hate saying that phrase) and, thus, ease their conscience somewhat. Even the most vocal climate change advocates aren't holding up in a cabin with Samsquanch (some will get this).
Are Ricky and Bubbles environmentalists?
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Old 08-09-2017   #51 (permalink)
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Love me some Bubbles.
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Old 08-10-2017   #52 (permalink)
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I love TPB episodes and movies. The specials that run on Netflix where they are out of character, not so much.


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Old 08-10-2017   #53 (permalink)
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No, I think it is like I stated above. Lots of people here claim to be super concerned with global warming but they don't stop vacationing or driving or using the computer in the AC. They may, however, choose to do some things that limit their carbon footprint (God, I hate saying that phrase) and, thus, ease their conscience somewhat. Even the most vocal climate change advocates aren't holding up in a cabin with Samsquanch (some will get this).


My point is really only that I think it's next to nonsensical to write off electric cars based on a very tiny percentage of kiddie miners. In the scope of ALL cobalt being mined, it's a very small amount that comes from the illegal mines where they use child labour....and since cobalt has such a myriad of uses, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

IOW...if one continues to drive a vehicle that uses oil and gas (= bigger carbon footprint) while saying that they think electric car batteries are 'bad' because they have more environmental and human rights issues around them , well, that is just measurably incorrect. That is all.

reminds me a bit of the whole bullfighting debate, and people who are over-melodramatically and violently opposed to it- yet blithely continue to eat meat from factory farmed animals, without seeing anything contradictory there. (Note that I am not talking about those who DO see the problem with that- which is likely most people, most of us here too- but those who are truly hypocritical.)
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Old 08-10-2017   #54 (permalink)
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My point is really only that I think it's next to nonsensical to write off electric cars based on a very tiny percentage of kiddie miners. In the scope of ALL cobalt being mined, it's a very small amount that comes from the illegal mines where they use child labour....and since cobalt has such a myriad of uses, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

IOW...if one continues to drive a vehicle that uses oil and gas (= bigger carbon footprint) while saying that they think electric car batteries are 'bad' because they have more environmental and human rights issues around them , well, that is just measurably incorrect. That is all.

reminds me a bit of the whole bullfighting debate, and people who are over-melodramatically and violently opposed to it- yet blithely continue to eat meat from factory farmed animals, without seeing anything contradictory there. (Note that I am not talking about those who DO see the problem with that- which is likely most people, most of us here too- but those who are truly hypocritical.)
Personally, I ain't driving one because I don't think they are proven entities and are too expensive. Plus, Mexico ain't exactly full of electric charging stations and electricity costs an arm and a leg here. I don't like kids working in mines but I know families gotta do what they gotta do to survive. The whole world is not Pleasantville, CA or Playacar, unfortunately.

My point was I didn't think ET was "throwing out the concept" as you claimed.
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Old 08-10-2017   #55 (permalink)
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Personally, I ain't driving one because I don't think they are proven entities and are too expensive. Plus, Mexico ain't exactly full of electric charging stations and electricity costs an arm and a leg here. I don't like kids working in mines but I know families gotta do what they gotta do to survive. The whole world is not Pleasantville, CA or Playacar, unfortunately.

My point was I didn't think ET was "throwing out the concept" as you claimed.

Kinda what I was getting at in my first post, yes.....very true. It's easy for privileged people to bemoan and criticize what is unfortunate reality for many of the world. Without those mining jobs, horrendous as the conditions are, those kids and their families might not eat.


anyway.....

I won't buy one because I can't afford one, don't want to pay far more than I already do for electricity (that comes mostly from coal here) and the cold long winters and my frequent 3-6 hour weekend trips. Saying it's mainly because you can't afford it is a legit reason for people who are responsible and know how to budget, even though some see it as a selfish reason, I'm sure.
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Old 08-10-2017   #56 (permalink)
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Personally, I ain't driving one because I don't think they are proven entities and are too expensive. Plus, Mexico ain't exactly full of electric charging stations and electricity costs an arm and a leg here. I don't like kids working in mines but I know families gotta do what they gotta do to survive. The whole world is not Pleasantville, CA or Playacar, unfortunately.

My point was I didn't think ET was "throwing out the concept" as you claimed.
Nailed it.

I said that the use of child labor was just one of the reasons I will never own a electric car. BTW, the production of car batteries cause a major step increase in the demand for nickle/cobalt which has caused a step increase in the use of child labor. Think about it.

I'm a sceptic and an electrical engineer (and really old. I'll probably need only one more car before I die.). Electric cars are definitely too expensive, etc., but more importantly why would I ever haul around over a half ton of batteries made of materials that are extremely dangerous to produce and harm Mother earth in their production? Who wants to sit directly on top of 1200 pounds of potentially explosive and/or fiery material?

32 pounds of gasoline, for $7 will carry me and my stuff a hundred miles in a properly designed vehicle!! I rented a Ford Focus in Las Vegas and drove over 300 miles on 8 gallons of gas!

Gas is available everywhere and I don't need a hundred mile long extension cord!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ssarily-clean/

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/

How Green are Electric Cars?

https://www.theguardian.com/vital-si...musk-powerwall

Last edited by eccentrictinker; 08-10-2017 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 08-10-2017   #57 (permalink)
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Kinda what I was getting at in my first post, yes.....very true. It's easy for privileged people to bemoan and criticize what is unfortunate reality for many of the world. Without those mining jobs, horrendous as the conditions are, those kids and their families might not eat.


anyway.....

I won't buy one because I can't afford one, don't want to pay far more than I already do for electricity (that comes mostly from coal here) and the cold long winters and my frequent 3-6 hour weekend trips. Saying it's mainly because you can't afford it is a legit reason for people who are responsible and know how to budget, even though some see it as a selfish reason, I'm sure.
The one to tell us to "do better" doesn't seem to hang around much anymore.
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Old 08-10-2017   #58 (permalink)
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Does anyone have a stat tat shows petroleum usage by industry?

Auto fuel versus, plastics versus makeup and on and on?
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Old 08-10-2017   #59 (permalink)
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From someone who owns a Chevy Volt:

Quote:
Chris C. says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:06 am
Patrick -

This is great info, but I think it’s best to provide an even shorter answer to curious people, and here’s what I tell them.

Ten dollars a month.

That is in fact how much it costs me to fuel my Volt. Now, I personally am benefiting from A) slightly low mileage, 8000 miles per year typically, and B) wonderfully low electrical rates. Here in Georgia, our utility offers a TOU rate plan that drops my overnight rate to 5 cents per kWh.

If you put more like 15000 miles per year on your car then the Volt might cost you about $20 per month to run. If you drive 15000 miles and have more typical electrical rates (say, 11 cents) then it would be about $40/month.

My point is that while all the cents per mile calculations are neat, they don’t drive the crucial point home, which is that the operating cost of this car is trivial! $40 is less than a single fill-up for most people, and stating it in terms of dollars per month illustrates it best.

When standing around in a parking lot (or an outreach event) answering questions, I think it’s important to start with the simple, dramatic answer. I do love the look on their face when I say “ten dollars per month”

- Chris
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Old 08-10-2017   #60 (permalink)
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The one to tell us to "do better" doesn't seem to hang around much anymore.
well, we were all so disappointing.
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