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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mnbruce View Post
The responsibility for reprehensible behavior is all on the abuser or harrasser.
Agreed. Of course.

But does that mean parents should not teach their daughters to protect themselves when the reality is that it unfortunately happens that women and girls are victims of harassment and assault at a much higher rate than boys and men are?

In a perfectly safe world women should be able to dress how they want and be free from bother of any kind. Get as drunk as they want and be assured nothing bad will happen. Sure. But that is not the case. Being irate and defensive about that situation doesn't make it any less factual.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #17 (permalink)
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I am only talking about personal appearance, not ones behavior. I never implied parents should not talk to their kids about the subject.

Last edited by Mnbruce; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:02 PM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #18 (permalink)
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Interesting discussion wherein the majority of the women taking part have a more conservative approach than the few men participating. I would never blame the victim of sexual abuse. Dress codes at work are the solution for that problem.

Sexual abuse is defined legally. Sexual harassment, on the other hand, can be a matter of perception which can be problematic.

The first time I really said more than "hi" to my wife was when I commented on the fact that I liked her new hairstyle. In today's world, had she not been receptive to my compliment, she could have complained to my boss that I was harassing her. Instead, we started dating and ended up married. The old rules of behavior have changed so much as to make comments that would have been considered run-of-the-mill niceties into reasons for expulsion from school or sanctions at work. I think that is sad but I also get that there are plenty of pigs in the world. We should do what we can to stop the real cases of harassment while not making simple conversation akin to a sex crime. The boundaries should be defined, not based on feelings. If not, we are going to have to teach our boys "Don't speak until spoken to. It's not worth the risk." Because it really won't be.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #19 (permalink)
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No one here ever said that sexual harassment is the victim's fault.

Neither is being mugged on the street. Does that mean that you shouldn't be aware of avoiding places that might happen?

What on earth is wrong, or "politically incorrect", about protecting yourself against harmful behavior? You have every RIGHT not to. But it's wrong to shame people for suggesting that it may be wise. Which is what some of you here are doing.

Wouldn't it be great if it were a "Kumbaya" world, and we didn't have to worry about any of this. But it's not. And we do. And we're not going to fix any of it by saying "but we SHOULD be able to do whatever we want".

Like I said, I don't have all the answers. But acting outraged about common sense in today's world is just ridiculous.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #20 (permalink)
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No one here ever said that sexual harassment is the victim's fault.

Neither is being mugged on the street. Does that mean that you shouldn't be aware of avoiding places that might happen?

What on earth is wrong, or "politically incorrect", about protecting yourself against harmful behavior? You have every RIGHT not to. But it's wrong to shame people for suggesting that it may be wise. Which is what some of you here are doing.

Wouldn't it be great if it were a "Kumbaya" world, and we didn't have to worry about any of this. But it's not. And we do. And we're not going to fix any of it by saying "but we SHOULD be able to do whatever we want".

Like I said, I don't have all the answers. But acting outraged about common sense in today's world is just ridiculous.
Not sure who you are directing that to but hopefully not me. I kind of agree with you but don't really think it is a man's place to tell a woman how to dress. I was staying out of that part of the conversation and letting y'all work it out. No mansplaining on that specific topic is going to come from this direction.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
Not sure who you are directing that to but hopefully not me. I kind of agree with you but don't really think it is a man's place to tell a woman how to dress. I was staying out of that part of the conversation and letting y'all work it out. No mansplaining on that specific topic is going to come from this direction.
It is likely directed at me, but it has nothing to do with ****ing political correctness. Some people just can't stop using the term. One persons opinion of inappropriate attire is not necessarily everyone else's.

Last edited by Mnbruce; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:39 PM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
Interesting discussion wherein the majority of the women taking part have a more conservative approach than the few men participating. I would never blame the victim of sexual abuse. Dress codes at work are the solution for that problem.

Sexual abuse is defined legally. Sexual harassment, on the other hand, can be a matter of perception which can be problematic.

The first time I really said more than "hi" to my wife was when I commented on the fact that I liked her new hairstyle. In today's world, had she not been receptive to my compliment, she could have complained to my boss that I was harassing her. Instead, we started dating and ended up married. The old rules of behavior have changed so much as to make comments that would have been considered run-of-the-mill niceties into reasons for expulsion from school or sanctions at work. I think that is sad but I also get that there are plenty of pigs in the world. We should do what we can to stop the real cases of harassment while not making simple conversation akin to a sex crime. The boundaries should be defined, not based on feelings. If not, we are going to have to teach our boys "Don't speak until spoken to. It's not worth the risk." Because it really won't be.
While I almost hate to agree with PDS because I'm sure he will find some way to insult me....I do agree. I think it's sad that a man can't compliment a woman, or vice versa out of fear they will be hauled to the HR office. There is a big stretch between, "gee you look nice today" and "hey I want to get into your pants". Like I said before I think there is responsibility on both sides. I think women need to be cognizant of what message they are sending, and men need to be aware of the same.

As far as dress codes go, we do have a dress code that we go over twice a year, winter/summer but I still see women dressed totally inappropriately for an office atmosphere. It is up to management to enforce it, but they always don't.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #23 (permalink)
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While I almost hate to agree with PDS because I'm sure he will find some way to insult me....I do agree.
If you disagree with someone all of the time, you are just disagreeable for the sake of it.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #24 (permalink)
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My impression is that most sexual harassment / attack is not highly correlated to women wearing "sexy" clothing.

That is not the same of saying there is no relationship, but I think it may be overstated.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #25 (permalink)
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I have never once been called into HR or even received a dirty look for a complementary comment towards a woman. I know what is or is not inappropriate.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mnbruce View Post
The responsibility for reprehensible behavior is all on the abuser or harrasser.
That's what I was trying to say...along with saying that there's nothing wrong with avoiding putting yourself in a position where you may fall VICTIM to reprehensible behavior. Like I said, just because you CAN dress like you want anytime, anywhere, doesn't mean that's the wisest choice. Just reality.

That statement seemed to get a lot of face slapping out of some of you here....but I think it's part of the education of ALL our children, teaching them appropriate behavior when and where. It's not just limited to telling young men that NO means NO.

Roni asked about opinions on what do we do.....so, Rick and Sue, what DO we DO???
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #27 (permalink)
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While I almost hate to agree with PDS because I'm sure he will find some way to insult me....I do agree. I think it's sad that a man can't compliment a woman, or vice versa out of fear they will be hauled to the HR office. There is a big stretch between, "gee you look nice today" and "hey I want to get into your pants". Like I said before I think there is responsibility on both sides. I think women need to be cognizant of what message they are sending, and men need to be aware of the same.

As far as dress codes go, we do have a dress code that we go over twice a year, winter/summer but I still see women dressed totally inappropriately for an office atmosphere. It is up to management to enforce it, but they always don't.
Yep that is absolutely true and I have little sympathy for people who claim not to see where the line is and believe in some nonsensical slippery slope where you can be sued for telling someone that their new hair style suits them. You can't ask a co-worker, especially a subordinate, out on a date, address her as "baby" or "honey" or "cutie" or make comments about the size of her breasts. This is not an exhaustive list obviously but when a man claims he can't see the difference between doing any of these things and asking her where she got her new glasses I suspect he is being disingenuous. If you honestly can't tell the difference and want to compliment a co-worker, maybe just say something like you are doing a great job and we appreciate you around here.

Then there is always the profane rhyming couplet that older men used to tell me when I was starting out that ends with "...in the company ink." Childish and silly but still good advice.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #28 (permalink)
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I think that there is a huge difference between comments like “nice dress” or “I like your new hairstyle,” and “nice tits, or “your ass looks fantastic in that dress.” Delivery is important, too. I also think that most women can tell if someone is being skeevy about a compliment and someone is just being complimentary. In the first two examples, I’d just say “thanks!” I’ve not encountered comments like the other two in a professional environment, but heard plenty on the skeevy side when I was a young bartender.

Men, what do you do to avoid sexual harassment and/or the potential for sexual assault?

Women, what do you do? I don’t run at night alone, and I wouldn’t even if I lived in a nicer neighborhood. I am aware of my surroundings when walking to my car in a parking lot, day or night. I have mace but rarely carry it. I do not dress provocatively for an occasion where it would be risky or inappropriate. When I was younger, I watched my drinks at parties or bars. Extracted myself from situations that started to make me feel uncomfortable. Stuck with friends in unfamiliar territory.

I have no doubt that the list of things women do to avoid harassment will be much longer than men’s. Because that has always been the focus of the conversation: what can women do to avoid being assaulted? That may be “reality,” but it’s still an unfair double standard steeped in sexism. The charge of “she was dressed like hooker” is no longer admissible in rape cases, but the blaming is still very much a part of our conversation. Curbing men’s uncontrollable lust via modest dress is also the justification for the burka in some cultures. How is that any different than questioning what a rape victim was wearing? And I’m not talking about inappropriate dress at the office, where guidelines are usually clear and most people use common sense.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by melliedee View Post
I think that there is a huge difference between comments like “nice dress” or “I like your new hairstyle,” and “nice tits, or “your ass looks fantastic in that dress.” Delivery is important, too. I also think that most women can tell if someone is being skeevy about a compliment and someone is just being complimentary. In the first two examples, I’d just say “thanks!” I’ve not encountered comments like the other two in a professional environment, but heard plenty on the skeevy side when I was a young bartender.

Men, what do you do to avoid sexual harassment and/or the potential for sexual assault?

Women, what do you do? I don’t run at night alone, and I wouldn’t even if I lived in a nicer neighborhood. I am aware of my surroundings when walking to my car in a parking lot, day or night. I have mace but rarely carry it. I do not dress provocatively for an occasion where it would be risky or inappropriate. When I was younger, I watched my drinks at parties or bars. Extracted myself from situations that started to make me feel uncomfortable. Stuck with friends in unfamiliar territory.

I have no doubt that the list of things women do to avoid harassment will be much longer than men’s. Because that has always been the focus of the conversation: what can women do to avoid being assaulted? That may be “reality,” but it’s still an unfair double standard steeped in sexism. The charge of “she was dressed like hooker” is no longer admissible in rape cases, but the blaming is still very much a part of our conversation. Curbing men’s uncontrollable lust via modest dress is also the justification for the burka in some cultures. How is that any different than questioning what a rape victim was wearing? And I’m not talking about inappropriate dress at the office, where guidelines are usually clear and most people use common sense.
Mell, i think your ass looks fantastic!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #30 (permalink)
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The problem is when people men or women are accused of sexual harassment when I really don't think it is. If a man would compliment me at work on my attire, hair, etc. I would not think it harassment....even back when I was younger (of course times were different then), unless there was some other kind of stipulation with that compliment that made me uncomfortable. However today, if a man innocently says a compliment, he can be hauled to HR for it...and I think that is sad.

Back in the day before everything was so PC, there was never this walk on eggshells atmosphere. If something got out of hand, you dealt with it, whether personally or through proper channels.
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