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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #31 (permalink)
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This is a thing. I'd venture that about half of the men who do this think they are being complimentary/cute and can't understand why we can't be good sports about it. Scroll to the end of the article for real comments from men to female runners; you couldn't make this sh*t up.

Running While Female
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by melliedee View Post
This is a thing. I'd venture that about half of the men who do this think they are being complimentary/cute and can't understand why we can't be good sports about it. Scroll to the end of the article for real comments from men to female runners; you couldn't make this sh*t up.

Running While Female
I am not at all surprised, unfortunately.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #33 (permalink)
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Hard to comment on this without someone finding politics in it.

My wife and I teach our boys that there are differences between men and women. They understand a lot of those things already, obviously. We teach them that all people are to be respected and that sex is an expression of love. It is not a recreational activity or a game or a means to an end. And it is definitely not a weapon. When there is love, there will be consent. Without love, there may be consent but it can come and go and be withdrawn at any point. Not something you want to take a chance on so better to keep it in your pants until you are in a responsible and loving relationship. Treat all women as you would your mom. If your actions would make your mom upset, then your actions are likely wrong.

I don't know how old your boys are but I would believe they are going to grow up to be very thoughtful and respectful men. I also believe that girls should be taught these same values. Good job.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #34 (permalink)
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My 37 year old daughter was here last night for dinner and we were talking about this very thing.
IMO, her generation is the one we (parents) starting screwing up on. All the "I'm ok, you're ok", "let's be pals", and sex drugs and rock and roll of the 60's that we lived through was passed on to the kids of that generation by some parents. I don't think it served them well, and was the start of what has turned into the entitlement generation - the inability to take "NO" for an answer, which I do think factors into the sexual assault/harrassment issues of today.

Should women, hypothetically, be able to dress however they want whenever they want without fear of harrassment or assault? In theory, YES. Of course. In reality? It's just not the case. Men are instinctually attracted by sex appeal, and what it's about is teaching/learning to control impulse. Add alcohol and drug use to the equation, like in college, and you're compromising your ability to make any good decision despite what you've been taught.....

I don't know the answers either. I'm thankful that my girls were able to navigate their ways through high school, college, and into careers without having fallen prey. And yes, some of that was because they were taught not to take shit, like Roni said.

The oldest, last night, said..."I was bullied EVERY DAY in high school. I'm short, I'm quirky, I wasn't "in" with the in crowd. I was ridiculed every day for something or other. AND SO?????"

Aside from teaching our kids proper behavior, let's teach them to cope with others' improper acts, instead of bailing them out of every situation....


Gotta agree with this one too!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #35 (permalink)
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I have no doubt that the list of things women do to avoid harassment will be much longer than men’s. Because that has always been the focus of the conversation: what can women do to avoid being assaulted? That may be “reality,” but it’s still an unfair double standard steeped in sexism. The charge of “she was dressed like hooker” is no longer admissible in rape cases, but the blaming is still very much a part of our conversation. Curbing men’s uncontrollable lust via modest dress is also the justification for the burka in some cultures. How is that any different than questioning what a rape victim was wearing? And I’m not talking about inappropriate dress at the office, where guidelines are usually clear and most people use common sense.
First of all (this is a callout to stuff going on in Twitter, for those of you not "in the know" ) - I agree with most of what you've said.

How is the fact that way more women are assaulted than men are assaulted, and therefore more suggestions of what women can do to protect themselves, "an unfair standard steeped in sexism"? It's a fact. Likely because men are stronger, bigger, and full of testosterone. This is purely physical, biological reality, not "sexism".

Until we can figure out how to invoke cultural change in future generations, NOT by legislation good grief, this is real, true, and worth educating our children about.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #36 (permalink)
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First of all (this is a callout to stuff going on in Twitter, for those of you not "in the know" ) - I agree with most of what you've said.

How is the fact that way more women are assaulted than men are assaulted, and therefore more suggestions of what women can do to protect themselves, "an unfair standard steeped in sexism"? It's a fact. Likely because men are stronger, bigger, and full of testosterone. This is purely physical, biological reality, not "sexism".

Until we can figure out how to invoke cultural change in future generations, NOT by legislation good grief, this is real, true, and worth educating our children about.
I am not saying it is not worth educating children about. I am saying that the conversation is always, to girls/women: how can you avoid being raped or assaulted; and, rarely, to boys/men: how can you avoid being a rapist or assaulter? That doesn't strike you as f-ed up? And, like I said, what may or may not be "reality," does not mean that we should give up on changing the conversation.

The same question posed to men and women about protection from assault is meant to get people talking about that very wide divide in our realities. Did you read the article I linked about women runners? Male runners are often shocked to hear these details, as if they were completely unaware that is a pretty common thing. The question is meant to get people thinking about that double standard.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #37 (permalink)
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I am not saying it is not worth educating children about. I am saying that the conversation is always, to girls/women: how can you avoid being raped or assaulted; and, rarely, to boys/men: how can you avoid being a rapist or assaulter? That doesn't strike you as f-ed up? And, like I said, what may or may not be "reality," does not mean that we should give up on changing the conversation.

The same question posed to men and women about protection from assault is meant to get people talking about that very wide divide in our realities. Did you read the article I linked about women runners? Male runners are often shocked to hear these details, as if they were completely unaware that is a pretty common thing. The question is meant to get people thinking about that double standard.
I don't think that in today's world boys/men are being ignored in the conversation. At all. School programs are targeted more at deviant behavior than girls protecting themselves.

The fact that everything pointed out in the article is a reality doesn't mean that there aren't steps being taken to change the culture. It doesn't happen overnight, and proving that these behaviors exist doesn't do anything to change them.
Back to parents, male role models, and education.

It's not that easy to sway innate human nature.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #38 (permalink)
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I don't think that in today's world boys/men are being ignored in the conversation. At all. School programs are targeted more at deviant behavior than girls protecting themselves.

The fact that everything pointed out in the article is a reality doesn't mean that there aren't steps being taken to change the culture. It doesn't happen overnight, and proving that these behaviors exist doesn't do anything to change them.
Back to parents, male role models, and education.

It's not that easy to sway innate human nature.
I do not think that we are actually disagreeing here, except, perhaps, about the extent to which violence against women is "innate" in human nature. I think that culture, society, and religion play a large part in shaping gender roles (precisely why the often antiquated ideas in our conversation need the kind of changes we have been talking about on this thread). I'm glad that you see them. I continually see the conversation devolving into: most harassment is just PC BS, learn to deal with it; and the old favorite: short skirts and cleavage invite assault/rape.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #39 (permalink)
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I wouldn't say rape and assault against women is 'innate' behavior- but I doubt our species will ever completely eradicate it, either.

I wouldn't say it's human nature (to rape or assault), not at all- but there will always be people who prey on the weak (whether physically or mentally). Always.

The more rights and respect women have in a society, also the more money and better education systems are in place, and better justice systems- the less of a problem it will be. (ie India compared to Sweden, say- I am sure the former has a far higher incidence of rape than the latter).

I feel like I get shit from some other women because I am more cavalier about the definition of harassment. So be it. I am definitely a feminist but very little really bothers or offends me when it comes to comments, jokes, etc.

I am sure by many womens' definitions, I get AND give inappropriate comments too much. Both at work (it's a very relaxed culture here in that respect) and among friends, etc.

But to me, it's all in fun- and it goes both ways. It's not about 'learning to deal with it'- I enjoy it, I have a good sense of humour (I think). Of course, I am a pretty mouthy and opinionated person, and I think men who know me know that if they say or do anything truly offensive (in my perception), I wouldn't stand for it.


The problem is that everyone's definition of what is 'over the line' offensive is going to be different. But the idea of just being safe and not saying anything that could possibly offend or annoy someone else is sad, to me. But I guess that is the world we live in today.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by melliedee View Post
This is a thing. I'd venture that about half of the men who do this think they are being complimentary/cute and can't understand why we can't be good sports about it. Scroll to the end of the article for real comments from men to female runners; you couldn't make this sh*t up.

Running While Female
All or almost all of the comments at the very end seemed on the extreme end of the spectrum, to me. I don't think anyone would characterize any of those comments as complimentary or 'cute'. They are clearly men being a-holes/pigs.
I have had my share of catcalls and comments from strangers, but I have to say I have NEVER had any like that. The ones I have had I would just call them complimentary and harmless. I don't get all flattered, I just ignore them, but they certainly don't scare me or piss me off.

I actually worry a bit about women who do get frightened or angry over the harmless compliments. (NOT the ones in the story- things like an admiring whistle or look). I think that is a sign they have much larger issues, either lots of baggage from something that happened to them, or unresolved anger, PTSD, etc.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #41 (permalink)
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I saw this posted on Facebook, in a thread started by a friend who chose not to do me too.

The image was too big, but what is said was that if a woman did not post #MeToo, it did not mean she was not harassed or attacked. Survivors do not owe you their stories.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #42 (permalink)
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I think most women (and men) have been a victim of "me to" - it is all about fun and games....till its not.... All of a sudden what was funny 2 months ago is not funny any more. Most women can shut it down (like Maggie) and others are more intimidated by it. I do believe there is a radar of who is vulnerable and who is not (this goes for men and women). Same thing goes for workplace bullies. You cant laugh at off color jokes with everyone else and then claim you know nothing about what was going on. It is calling out behavior when you see it happening that counts. May not make you popular - but this whole HW issue is a prime example. Those who knew and did nothing are just as guilty IMO.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #43 (permalink)
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Must say I am impressed with the fact that this thread has stayed on topic, been civil and not really entered into the realm of politics. Hope my post stays that course.

Nature vs. nurture. I believe, in the case of sexual harassment it is definitely learned behavior. If the male role model in your life treats women poorly, that is the example a boy will follow. If he has no male in his life, he will follow those he sees and this is where culture may enter (although I believe that his is far less pervasive). If a woman despises the father of her son and takes it out on the kid, that boy is may grow up with hatred towards women. That is a vicious circle.

Rape and assault may be instinctual in some whose wires are seriously crossed but most of it comes from how we are raised, as well, I believe. As families have been destroyed by social policies that do not encourage two-parent families and divorce has been made so easy, it is not surprising that fewer children grow up with a lack of education on such simple things as respect and common decency. I do not think that parents should "stay together for the sake of the children" but they ought to sacrifice a whole lot more for the sake of their children. Lots of selfishness in today's world from adults who were not taught responsibility. You can trace a lot of the problems back to specific times and generations. It was never perfect but it all started to go to shit when we started treating sex as a recreational sport where you could erase your errors and put notches on your bedpost, IMHO.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #44 (permalink)
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I think most women (and men) have been a victim of "me to" - it is all about fun and games....till its not.... All of a sudden what was funny 2 months ago is not funny any more. Most women can shut it down (like Maggie) and others are more intimidated by it. I do believe there is a radar of who is vulnerable and who is not (this goes for men and women). Same thing goes for workplace bullies. You cant laugh at off color jokes with everyone else and then claim you know nothing about what was going on. It is calling out behavior when you see it happening that counts. May not make you popular - but this whole HW issue is a prime example. Those who knew and did nothing are just as guilty IMO.

Three people were fired at my workplace about a year ago because of seriously vicious psychological bullying that was going on for months. Two males on a crew targeted a fellow crew member- who also obviously had serious emotional issues. He killed himself and the two were fired along with their supervisor as he knew about it but didn't do enough to stop it.

Stuff like that can be terrible, and have awful outcomes- and I am very glad they are taking that shite more seriously in workplaces these days.

Weinstein was an abhorrent creature, from the sounds of it. I feel sorry for anyone who has had similar encounters with jerks like him.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #45 (permalink)
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Must say I am impressed with the fact that this thread has stayed on topic, been civil and not really entered into the realm of politics. Hope my post stays that course.

Nature vs. nurture. I believe, in the case of sexual harassment it is definitely learned behavior. If the male role model in your life treats women poorly, that is the example a boy will follow. If he has no male in his life, he will follow those he sees and this is where culture may enter (although I believe that his is far less pervasive). If a woman despises the father of her son and takes it out on the kid, that boy is may grow up with hatred towards women. That is a vicious circle.

Rape and assault may be instinctual in some whose wires are seriously crossed but most of it comes from how we are raised, as well, I believe. As families have been destroyed by social policies that do not encourage two-parent families and divorce has been made so easy, it is not surprising that fewer children grow up with a lack of education on such simple things as respect and common decency. I do not think that parents should "stay together for the sake of the children" but they ought to sacrifice a whole lot more for the sake of their children. Lots of selfishness in today's world from adults who were not taught responsibility. You can trace a lot of the problems back to specific times and generations. It was never perfect but it all started to go to shit when we started treating sex as a recreational sport where you could erase your errors and put notches on your bedpost, IMHO.
Not disagreeing with some of what you said-but rape and being demeaning to women is hardly a new thing, and I think the stats would show that we have come a LONG way in the past 100 years. Not that we don't have a ways to go in much of the world, but compare how women were regarded 100 years ago to today, and to me it's a huge improvement.

Although I think some maybe look with rose coloured glasses at the past and confuse putting women on pedestals and being more gentlemanly toward them means there was more respect toward them....but not really, when they thought of them as the weaker sex, or inferior, or they belonged in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant....
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