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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rissask View Post
Not disagreeing with some of what you said-but rape and being demeaning to women is hardly a new thing, and I think the stats would show that we have come a LONG way in the past 100 years. Not that we don't have a ways to go in much of the world, but compare how women were regarded 100 years ago to today, and to me it's a huge improvement.

Although I think some maybe look with rose coloured glasses at the past and confuse putting women on pedestals and being more gentlemanly toward them means there was more respect toward them....but not really, when they thought of them as the weaker sex, or inferior, or they belonged in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant....
I get that. Rape is more about violence than sex. Violence, many times, stems from anger. Specifically, anger at women. That is either taught or made by circumstances.

My point was more on the lines of the harassment. There used to be clearer lines. You can argue, and with reason, that some of these lines were sexist. I get that too. But when they were removed, so were some other things that went with them. There are differences between the sexes. We need to acknowledge that without using them as an excuse to discriminate. However, if we don't acknowledge the differences, men are going to treat women like they do other men in all aspects of life and we know how that turns out.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #47 (permalink)
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I never meant to infer that rape or assault was innate. Rereading my post, I can see how it sounded like that. What I do believe is that women's bodies bringing about lustful feelings in men is innate, as is the fact that men are more aggressive by nature. In my opinion, this is testosterone-related. Chemical. Physical.

On the subject of "harrassment" - I have a workplace story, too. There was a gentleman, and he REALLY was, of Italian-American descent who was a higher up in the accounting department of my company. Every morning he would stroll past offices, and say things like "Hello, girls, hope you have a wonderful day"; or "Hello, dear, how are you doing today?"
Someone reported him for harrassment, and he had to go to "sensitivity" training - at the ripe old age of 60. I was so upset over this - clearly, he meant NOTHING harrassing, suggestive, insulting, by what he said. He was a warm, genuine guy. He became so flustered by it all that he retired shortly after.

Then again, I'm like Rissask this way. I can take it and I can dish it out and almost NOTHING offends me. Certainly not jokes, or a little off color language.


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Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
It was never perfect but it all started to go to shit when we started treating sex as a recreational sport where you could erase your errors and put notches on your bedpost, IMHO.
THIS ^^^^ So MUCH THIS^^^. Couldn't agree more. This goes along with what Riss was referring to - that women were treated differently back in the day, and they demanded certain kinds of treatment. What I saw when I was growing up was stay-at-home moms who were very respected by their husbands for their ability to run the household. Just the way it was.

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Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
There are differences between the sexes. We need to acknowledge that without using them as an excuse to discriminate. However, if we don't acknowledge the differences, men are going to treat women like they do other men in all aspects of life and we know how that turns out.
I completely agree with this, too. 100 per cent.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #48 (permalink)
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About the statement PDS2 made:
Quote:
"It was never perfect but it all started to go to shit when we started treating sex as a recreational sport where you could erase your errors and put notches on your bedpost, IMHO."
Sex can be a wonderful recreational activity when practiced between consenting adults. Another view is that things started improving when barriers against that were lowered.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #49 (permalink)
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I learned how to treat and respect women by observing my father. I did pretty much the opposite of everything he did.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #50 (permalink)
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I learned how to treat and respect women by observing my father. I did pretty much the opposite of everything he did.
Wow, I had a good example from mine.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roni View Post
About the statement PDS2 made:

Sex can be a wonderful recreational activity when practiced between consenting adults. Another view is that things started improving when barriers against that were lowered.

At least as far as you can remember, right?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #52 (permalink)
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From MSN -

Monica Lewinsky raised eyebrows over the weekend when she tweeted the hashtag #MeToo, marking herself as a victim of sexual harassment or assault.

Lewinsky, who carried on an affair with then-President Bill Clinton while a White House intern in the 1990s, did not go into details about her experience.

Several women have accused Clinton of sexual misconduct, dating back to his tenure as governor of Arkansas. Clinton has only admitted to having consensual relations with Lewinsky and Gennifer Flowers.

The #MeToo hashtag gained traction after actress Alyssa Milano asked Twitter users to respond with that message if they had been subject to unwelcome advances.

The social media outcry has followed a series of accusations of sexual misconduct against film producer Harvey Weinstein. A number of actresses, including Ashley Judd, Gwyneth Paltrow and Rose McGowan, have accused Weinstein of sexual abuse, assault and in the case of British actor Lysette Anthony, rape.

(Maybe this belongs in the Clinton thread) - FWIIW - I think she was a victim of both Bill and Hillary.

Last edited by TAPPY; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:25 AM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roni View Post
About the statement PDS2 made:

Sex can be a wonderful recreational activity when practiced between consenting adults. Another view is that things started improving when barriers against that were lowered.
When I see 13 year old middle school girls at the bus stop dressed in clothing that would better be considered appropriate for an adult going clubbing, I have a hard time thinking that things have improved.

I get what you're saying as far as removing some taboos whose time was due. But there have been, IMO, big consequences of the sexual revolution, and it hasn't done anything to help curb assault and harassment against women.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
On the subject of "harrassment" - I have a workplace story, too. There was a gentleman, and he REALLY was, of Italian-American descent who was a higher up in the accounting department of my company. Every morning he would stroll past offices, and say things like "Hello, girls, hope you have a wonderful day"; or "Hello, dear, how are you doing today?"
Someone reported him for harrassment, and he had to go to "sensitivity" training - at the ripe old age of 60. I was so upset over this - clearly, he meant NOTHING harrassing, suggestive, insulting, by what he said. He was a warm, genuine guy. He became so flustered by it all that he retired shortly after.
That's just pathetic, really. That type of thing makes me so pissed off. No common sense at all on the part of whoever brought that complaint up, imo.


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Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
I get that. Rape is more about violence than sex. Violence, many times, stems from anger. Specifically, anger at women. That is either taught or made by circumstances.

My point was more on the lines of the harassment. There used to be clearer lines. You can argue, and with reason, that some of these lines were sexist. I get that too. But when they were removed, so were some other things that went with them. There are differences between the sexes. We need to acknowledge that without using them as an excuse to discriminate. However, if we don't acknowledge the differences, men are going to treat women like they do other men in all aspects of life and we know how that turns out.
I don't disagree with what you are saying- other than it seems like your premise might be that in the past, there was statistically less instances of rape? Do you think that is true?

Because I don't believe that is true at all. (Edit- after looking it up, I am correct. It's actually declining.)
It was more hidden, and less likely to be reported and men less likely to be charged or punished- but there has always been rape and assaults against women.

In fact, studies show it is declining these days. Both rape and other sexual assaults.

Quote:
According to a March 2013 report from the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, from 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000.

Assaults on young women aged 12–17 declined from 11.3 per 1,000 in 1994-1998 to 4.1 per 1,000 in 2005-2010; assaults on women aged 18–34 also declined over the same period, from 7.0 per 1,000 to 3.7.
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Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws, education on security for women, and a correlation with the rise in Internet pornography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_i...tes#Statistics


Although it is still being underreported, it's certainly reported more often than 1948. Or even 1995.

In part it is declining due to better education, more attention, better likelihood of perpetrators being punished.

I'd say that is good news- and maybe not what people actually think is the case. Although that is typical.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbiec View Post
When I see 13 year old middle school girls at the bus stop dressed in clothing that would better be considered appropriate for an adult going clubbing, I have a hard time thinking that things have improved.

I get what you're saying as far as removing some taboos whose time was due. But there have been, IMO, big consequences of the sexual revolution, and it hasn't done anything to help curb assault and harassment against women.
I did limit it to consenting adults. That rules out 13 year olds, and it rules out harassing and assaultive behaviors.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #56 (permalink)
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Speaking of Monica Lewinsky, she was recently asked if the claims against Weinstein compare to what happened to her with Bill Clinton. She said, Close, but no cigar.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rissask View Post
That's just pathetic, really. That type of thing makes me so pissed off. No common sense at all on the part of whoever brought that complaint up, imo.




I don't disagree with what you are saying- other than it seems like your premise might be that in the past, there was statistically less instances of rape? Do you think that is true?

Because I don't believe that is true at all. (Edit- after looking it up, I am correct. It's actually declining.)
It was more hidden, and less likely to be reported and men less likely to be charged or punished- but there has always been rape and assaults against women.

In fact, studies show it is declining these days. Both rape and other sexual assaults.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_i...tes#Statistics


Although it is still being underreported, it's certainly reported more often than 1948. Or even 1995.

In part it is declining due to better education, more attention, better likelihood of perpetrators being punished.

I'd say that is good news- and maybe not what people actually think is the case. Although that is typical.
I do not believe I stated rape was more common now.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayadelSolDos View Post
I do not believe I stated rape was more common now.
ok, but you did say this:

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Rape and assault may be instinctual in some whose wires are seriously crossed but most of it comes from how we are raised, as well, I believe. As families have been destroyed by social policies that do not encourage two-parent families and divorce has been made so easy, it is not surprising that fewer children grow up with a lack of education on such simple things as respect and common decency. I do not think that parents should "stay together for the sake of the children" but they ought to sacrifice a whole lot more for the sake of their children. Lots of selfishness in today's world from adults who were not taught responsibility. You can trace a lot of the problems back to specific times and generations. It was never perfect but it all started to go to shit when we started treating sex as a recreational sport where you could erase your errors and put notches on your bedpost, IMHO.
and yet the rate of rape and sexual assault is declining in the US, so...it's not exactly 'going to shit' then, imo, but the opposite.

I remember when I was little there was a freaky guy who lived alone down the street. Apparently he had at least tried to molest kids, not sure if he ever succeeded, but all the parents would warn their kids to 'stay away from him' and his house. Yet he never was charged or anything, it was mostly swept under the rug and not talked about other than 'stay away from him.'

Thank goodness times have changed, I say. Are some of the social niceties gone that would still be nice to have? Maybe, sure. Is the price worth it? I don't think so....but hey I'm just a woman.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #59 (permalink)
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And I also said

Quote:
My point was more on the lines of the harassment. There used to be clearer lines.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #60 (permalink)
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I did limit it to consenting adults. That rules out 13 year olds, and it rules out harassing and assaultive behaviors.
Oh I know you did, I wasn't saying that you said anything wrong. I was just pointing out that I think the "trickle-down" of the loosening of sexual mores has, IMO, had a negative effect in some ways.

Again, a personal story: My 37 year old single daughter, during this conversation the other evening, said that she is completely fed up with the dating scene. "Mom, you meet a guy at some event, you have great conversation for an hour or two, he takes you home, a kiss at the door....and he thinks he's coming in to get laid. I'm like.....Could you AT LEAST call me up, take me to dinner??? At least TRY to pretend you weren't interested in me all evening just for sex??"

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Originally Posted by Rissask View Post
That's just pathetic, really. That type of thing makes me so pissed off. No common sense at all on the part of whoever brought that complaint up, imo.
And you know what she was complaining about? Being called a "girl". "I'm NOT a GIRL, I'm a GROWN ASS WOMAN". Seriously?? I can't in any way imagine being insulted by being called a girl. That's crazy to me.
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